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Woes of high speed taxiing

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Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:04 am Post subject: Woes of high speed taxiing

Ground loops and the damage caused from them during high speed taxi is a 

very old and sad story on this list.  Many folks have spent several years 

building their airplane and in minutes it's back in the shop for another 

year of repairs or get disgusted and sell what's left of the airplane.

The merits and woes of high speed taxiing is a topic that has come and gone 

several times here, usually after some poor soul happened to lose control 

during the process.  One of the problems with a KF, especially the early 

models, is that it can easily get airborne in ground effect long before one 

has control authority which can easily result in loss of control. 

Generally, the consensus was to not do any high speed taxiing at all because 

it proves nothing and only offers an opportunity to cause damage.  Just go 

out, taxi around for awhile keeping the speed slow and safe, taxi back to 

check things out under the hood one last time, and if all is well and the 

conditions are favorable,  go back out and firewall it.  Most of us have 

gotten away with high speed taxiing, but many others have not.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

 	  Quote: 	

 At 06:49 PM 5/20/2008, you wrote:

>My first high speed taxi run.....it got away from me.

>It started to fish tail and and I must have pushed too hard on one pedal.

         The only really useful piece of advice I got on high speed 

 taildragger work was to never press and hold a rudder pedal, but rather to 

 stab at it, look at the results, then stab again as necessary. This tends 

 to keep you away from pilot induced oscillation, since your response 

 frequency is much higher with the stab than with the push and hold. As you 

 get better the stabs get smoother and may eventually disappear altogether, 

 but I find I still do it for major excursions.

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

brucejolene(at)iowateleco
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:04 am Post subject: Woes of high speed taxiing

After repairs, I'm going to seek a qualified instructor before I do 

anything.



Would an examination of the wing by a mechanic be warrented?



---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: Woes of high speed taxiing

At 05:01 AM 4/22/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  After repairs, I'm going to seek a qualified instructor before I do anything. 	


         Good idea. Also, reading Stick and Rudder and Ed Downs' Kitfox Pilot's Guide are good. Be wary, though. Few instructors have the experience of anything as squirrelly as a Kitfox. I know our local Citabria CFI expert nearly choked on her chewing gum the first time she flew a IV. (She is also a Cub expert.) Look for someone with time in a Lucsombe or Kitfox/Avid/Highlander/etc.



  	  Quote: 	
		  Would an examination of the wing by a mechanic be warrented? 	


         Did it touch the ground? If so, definitely.



         By the way, I am of the pro-high speed taxi set. I understand you can survive a long time wrestling it into the air as soon as possible, and then keeping it off the ground as long as possible via three-pointers, but I think it rather limits your capabilities. (I suppose that, over time, you'll get more used to the pedals and will be able to do wheel landings and the other things that require high speed taxi capabilities, but how will you know?) I suppose the best idea would be to learn to high-speed taxi on turf or dirt, where you can slide around a little, then transition to the hard.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Woes of high speed taxiing

Learn to tail up taxi your favorite taildragger. Then take the fox out and 

practice the same thing. You won't get airborne if you keep the stick

forward.



My first two passes in my Kitfox were eye openers as I was NOT used to

the rudder effectiveness. SO I'm glad I practiced a bunch of tail up runs 

in it first before I ever flew it.  



I also had a 6500 ft. runway, wide enough to land a 747 on for practice 

as well which made directional control not so critical as well. I just went

early in the morning and amused the controllers with my repeated

requests to fast taxi down the ruunway. 



I'm not an expert, but my advice would be to get used to flying it on the

ground before you try to land it from the air ...



Jeff

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Woes of high speed taxiing

You are so right.  I have over 1300 hours on my Model IV.  I let one person fly my aircraft, didn't know him from Adam but met him at Reid Hillview Airport.  He said he owned several Lucsombe's.  After taking off he flew around the area as I was pretty new in that area.  He did a great job flying and I asked him if he wanted to land it.  He said sure, I fly from the right seat so he was in the left.  He did a great job of landing and my only comment was he flaired a little hot on speed, he said that he wanted to feel the aircraft in ground effect before he got it too slow.

  

 Clint



 [quote]  Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:38:52 -0700

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

From: bnn(at)nethere.com

Subject: Re: Woes of high speed taxiing



At 05:01 AM 4/22/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  After repairs, I'm going to seek a qualified instructor before I do anything. 	


        Good idea. Also, reading Stick and Rudder and Ed Downs' Kitfox Pilot's Guide are good. Be wary, though. Few instructors have the experience of anything as squirrelly as a Kitfox. I know our local Citabria CFI expert nearly choked on her chewing gum the first time she flew a IV. (She is also a Cub expert.) Look for someone with time in a Lucsombe or Kitfox/Avid/Highlander/etc.



  	  Quote: 	
		  Would an examination of the wing by a mechanic be warrented? 	


        Did it touch the ground? If so, definitely.



        By the way, I am of the pro-high speed taxi set. I understand you can survive a long time wrestling it into the air as soon as possible, and then keeping it off the ground as long as possible via three-pointers, but I think it rather limits your capabilities. (I suppose that, over time, you'll get more used to the pedals and will be able to do wheel landings and the other things that require high speed taxi capabilities, but how will you know?) I suppose the best idea would be to learn to high-speed taxi on turf or dirt, where you can slide around a little, then transition to the hard.



 Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.  	  Quote: 	
		  



arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

p://forums.matronics.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Woes of high speed taxiing

Hey! Watch it fella. Don't you be calling my Fox "squirrelly!" She's "nimble!" But if what you mean is that Kitfoxes don't handle like Cubs or Citabrias, you're absolutely right. Ed Down's calls it "high performance" and I agree, at least to the extent that characterization can be applied to an airplane that cruises at 70 mph. 

   

  I tried high speed taxiing, should have gone ahead and flown. IMHO, it puts the airplane in  the most difficult part of the performance envelope and should be avoided by novices. I ground looped . . . thank God for those droopy "wing tip protectors."

   

  do not archive 



Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> wrote:

  [quote]At 05:01 AM 4/22/2008, you wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  After repairs, I'm going to seek a qualified instructor before I do anything. 	


        Good idea. Also, reading Stick and Rudder and Ed Downs' Kitfox Pilot's Guide are good. Be wary, though. Few instructors have the experience of anything as squirrelly as a Kitfox. I know our local Citabria CFI expert nearly choked on her chewing gum the first time she flew a IV. (She is also a Cub expert.) Look for someone with time in a Lucsombe or Kitfox/Avid/Highlander/etc.



   	  Quote: 	
		  Would an examination of the wing by a mechanic be warrented? 	


        Did it touch the ground? If so, definitely.



        By the way, I am of the pro-high speed taxi set. I understand you can survive a long time wrestling it into the        Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Woes of high speed taxiing

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: n85ae [n85ae(at)yahoo.com] 

 Learn to tail up taxi your favorite taildragger.


	


I just love to land on an airfield with tower, on the numbers, then taxi with the tail up to the taxiway I am asked to exit. I know that they watch me from the tower and my ego feels good!  But, of course, it requires practice.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

do not archive

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

peteohms

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Woes of high speed taxiing

While the Kitfox is defiantly "nimble".  I  flew my III home from Buckeye, Az to where I keep it in Las Cruces, NM (except  the last 60 miles). I had no previous time in a Kitfox except a little  hands on in a Kitfox IV thanks to a gentleman in the Phoenix area (no takeoffs  and landings).   I had 20 hrs recent experience, 8 of which  was in taildraggers.  28 years I had not flown.  I had about 20 total  hours tail dragger time at the time I lifted off at Buckeye.  2.7 hours of  my recent time was in a Cessna 140.  I think it is way harder to fly the  140.  I feel I am not qualified to fly a 140.  My theory when I bought  my Kitfox was to take off with no high speed taxiing practice.  I felt that  If I was to ding the plane up I should fly it as close to my home as possible so  the parts would at least be closer to home.  When I took off I was not  getting full power due to prop adjustment so it took more runway than I  planned.  I got a little squirrelly on the runway but was finally airborne  before it got too bad.  My first Kitfox III landing was 2 hrs after  taking off.  I landed at Marana Regional, west of Tucson, AZ to gas up  just to see how much fuel I was using.  My landing was 3 or 4  bounces and got a swerve or two on roll out.  A friend said I should log  each of those bounces.  When I took off from Marana I concentrated on what  I was doing and made a good takeoff (no swerves).  I wasn't sure if my  transponder was working so before I left Marana I called Tucson approach on the  phone and asked if they would clear me through class C airspace.  The  controller was cool and when I called after takeoff he had me squawk 0401 (or  some such) then he had me turn a heading of 180.  He said my transponder  was working but showed some other code.  I flew the remaining 3.6 hours to  Deming, NM at 7500 ft +/- 500' because of thermal activity.  I had planned  to go all the way to Las Cruces, NM but it was starting to get dark so I made a  pretty good landing in Deming, NM.  I believe some of the reason I was able  to fly the Kitfox is because I made some rudder pedals for Microsoft Flight  simulator and spent a bunch of time practicing.  That's my story.  May  have been the crazy way to go but it was a Great Adventure.

  

 Pete

 Kitfox III N73BH 912 ul

  

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove

brucejolene(at)iowateleco
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: Woes of high speed taxiing

What did you do to check the  wing for damage? I have the droop tips too.  

 How did you repair the  tip?

  

 Bruce

 [quote]   ---

brucejolene(at)iowateleco
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: Woes of high speed taxiing

Good advice thanks.



---

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: Woes of high speed taxiing

Hi Bruce.

   

  The loop was on grass and my wingtip barely touched. The incident was more of an embarrassment than anything else. I have (unopened) inspection holes near the wingtips but did not think it warranted to cut open for inspection. In the end, all I had to do was clean up a little dirt and add touch-up paint to the tip (and to my ego). 

   

  I would think, though, that more serious damage to these tips would be easily reparable with an inexpensive fiberglass repair kit.



Bruce Jolene <brucejolene(at)iowatelecom.net> wrote:

  [quote]        What did you do to check the wing for damage? I have the droop tips too.  

  How did you repair the tip?

   

  Bruce

  [quote]  ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Woes of high speed taxiing

It never hurts to have another party check out any repairs you make to your plane.  When you find the instructor both of you should do an in depth walk around.  Point out any place you may have worked on.  

   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C8A542.BF405CB0[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan

 Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 2:09 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Woes of high speed taxiing  

  

  

   

At 05:01 AM 4/22/2008, you wrote:

 

   

After repairs, I'm going to seek a qualified instructor before I do anything.  



         Good idea. Also, reading Stick and Rudder and Ed Downs' Kitfox Pilot's Guide are good. Be wary, though. Few instructors have the experience of anything as squirrelly as a Kitfox. I know our local Citabria CFI expert nearly choked on her chewing gum the first time she flew a IV. (She is also a Cub expert.) Look for someone with time in a Lucsombe or Kitfox/Avid/Highlander/etc.

 

 

   

Would an examination of the wing by a mechanic be warrented?  



         Did it touch the ground? If so, definitely.

 

         By the way, I am of the pro-high speed taxi set. I understand you can survive a long time wrestling it into the air as soon as possible, and then keeping it off the ground as long as possible via three-pointers, but I think it rather limits your capabilities. (I suppose that, over time, you'll get more used to the pedals and will be able to do wheel landings and the other things that require high speed taxi capabilities, but how will you know?) I suppose the best idea would be to learn to high-speed taxi on turf or dirt, where you can slide around a little, then transition to the hard.

 

 

   

Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    	  Quote: 	
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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Woes of high speed taxiing

[quote="msm_9949(at)yahoo.com"]Hi Bruce.

   

  The loop was on grass and my wingtip barely touched. The incident was more of an embarrassment than anything else. I have (unopened) inspection holes near the wingtips but did not think it warranted to cut open for inspection. In the end, all I had to do was clean up a little dirt and add touch-up paint to the tip (and to my ego). 

   

  I would think, though, that more serious damage to these tips would be easily reparable with an inexpensive fiberglass repair kit.



Bruce Jolene <brucejolene> wrote:

  [quote]        What did you do to check the wing for damage? I have the droop tips too.  

  How did you repair the tip?

   

  Bruce

   	  Quote: 	
		    --- 	




I have done repairs to the wing tips using both fiberglass resin / cloth  and thin CA used for R/C models.  Both have held up well.  The First repair was done by just wicking thin CA into the joint as the tips were starting to de-laminate at the trailing edge.  This repair held up quite well until a gear failure led to a modified ground loop with a 1 1/2 ganier flip / twist...  That repair called for serious fiberglass work, but nothing exotic.



I just completed repairs on the wing tips for my Avid that were damaged by the previous owner in a manuver pretty much inline with the above described event / ride my brother so graciously felt the need to share with me.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

brucejolene(at)iowateleco
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: Woes of high speed taxiing

thanks.

 [quote]   ---

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