Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Short field take off : was 6" extension

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Short field take off : was 6" extension
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

Good post Larry.  I agree.  These discussion are just like the landing and 

slipping discussions where it normally ends up to technique that feels good 

to the particular flyer.  Very often, it's the way a person was first taught 

and it becomes cast in stone.   I have  a relatively short farm strip, about 

900 Kitfox hours, and countless takeoff/landings, so the vast majority of 

mine are short field technique.  Sure, I could flatten out my prop and get 

the airplane off the ground in 100 feet and have something to brag about, 

but that's about all it is, bragging rights.  I've tried every combination 

possible and I always come back to the same thing that works best in my 

situation.  I use half flaps, full forward stick, tail up, pick up some 

speed, then tail down to get the wheels off the ground and into ground 

effect as soon as possible so I can quickly accelerate.  The quicker the 

wheels are off the ground and the airplane is level in ground effect, the 

quicker it will accelerate to climb speed.  I don't even look at the 

airspeed as it all goes by feel.  I've found that I use up a tad more runway 

this way, but not very much--possibly 50 feet.  The pros to this are 

visibility and safety.  I have the long aluminum gear so my S5 sits very 

nose high and getting the tail up right away allows me to see if a deer is 

running out in front of me or any other thing I hadn't seen.  If I had a 

nose dragger, obviously I'd do it somewhat differently.  All this talk about 

who can get their airplane off the ground the quickest is "groundless" chest 

beating and doesn't really prove anything.  The most important thing IMO, is 

to use a technique that allows one to make a safe takeoff in a reasonable 

distance with enough airspeed to make a climb well above stall speed.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

taildragon(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Good points. Sometimes it is necessary to combine several techniques. You  all remember being taught short field techniques over a 50 ft obstacle where  extending your ground roll (with tail up for low drag) builds momentum to be  converted to altitude while climbing at Vx. But if your situation is a  short field surrounded by tall trees and is muddy/wet or snowy or just tall  grass, then you first need to clear the ground asap, accelerate in ground effect  and then climb at Vx to clear the trees.

 We have such a field here, and to add to the fun, we can use only one end  of the field for takeoffs and landings, regardless of wind direction.

 [quote]   ---

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

Thanks all for some good discussion.  I am in agreement with Deke for the

reason he mentions - watch for deer.



Larry said:   "In theory, a tail up roll would lessen the amount of induced

drag created by the wings as the angle of attack would be less, thereby

accelerate quicker."  



In support of Larry's point on this is that with the drag proportional to

the air speed, there is negligible drag at the low speed in the start of the

takeoff run.  It is only at the last second before takeoff that it becomes

significant and I know I can't run the stick fast enough (and I doubt that

the tail moves up or down fast enough) to take advantage of the situation.



Randy



Randy Daughenbaugh,  N10NH

Black Hills of South Dakota, - Near Mount Rushmore

Home Strip, Grass   Room in Hangar for visitors

Series 5/7 (7 Firewall Forward) 912S, Warp Drive Taper Tip

Gross Weight 1320 lbs, Flying since November 2004 



--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

I wonder if these "get off quick" guys ever go anyplace with these  

planes, or just practice takeoffs? Maybe I'm just jealous, but I'd  

rather go someplace than just brag about my short takeoffs. To each  

his/her own, I guess.



Lynn

do not archive



On Apr 5, 2008, at 10:10 AM, fox5flyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     Sure, I could flatten out my prop and get the airplane off the  

 ground in 100 feet and have something to brag about, but that's  

 about all it is, bragging rights.

   (snip)
	




 	  Quote: 	
		   All this talk about who can get their airplane off the ground the  

 quickest is "groundless" chest beating and doesn't really prove  

 anything.


	




 	  Quote: 	
		   Deke Morisse

>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

Oops, I just reread my message and saw that I might have ruffled some 

feathers, especially "Rotax Dealer".  If you're pitched to get off the 

ground in 100 feet, then you're pitched to cruise at 65 mph!

Deke



---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

My sincere apologies.  That was not meant to go to the list.

Again, my apologies, especially to Dave.  Too quick to hit the "send" 

button.

Deke



---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: Re: Short field take off : was 6

Deke, 



First off my Kitfox that is off in 100 feet or less  will cruise at  92 mph  with  the 21 " King fox tires.   That is TAS not IAS.   I have a WARP ground adjustable on it now and those are the numbers. Plain and simple it works and works well.  Engine has 420 hours on it and never been apart yet. According to popular belief that 2 stroke should have flown apart hundreds of hours ago. ?  Heck man on Amphib floats I cruise at  85 MPH with a stinking 582  --  



PS if you Kitfox will get off the ground in 100 feet ?>   I would like to see that on Video,  --See the difference between me and others is that is put my camera where my mouth is.Some like it -- others do not . But At least I can verify what I say with a video.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Oops, I just reread my message and saw that I might have ruffled some 

feathers, especially "Rotax Dealer". If you're pitched to get off the 

ground in 100 feet, then you're pitched to cruise at 65 mph! 

Deke 



---

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

dave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Deke, 

 First off my Kitfox that is off in 100 feet or less  will cruise at  92 mph  with  the 21 " King fox tires.   That is TAS not IAS.   I have a WARP ground adjustable on it now and those are the numbers. Plain and simple it works and works well.  Engine has 420 hours on it and never been apart yet. According to popular belief that 2 stroke should have flown apart hundreds of hours ago. ?  Heck man on Amphib floats I cruise at  85 MPH with a stinking 582  --  

 PS if you Kitfox will get off the ground in 100 feet ?>   I would like to see that on Video,  --See the difference between me and others is that is put my camera where my mouth is.Some like it -- others do not . But At least I can verify what I say with a video.

> Oops, I just reread my message and saw that I might have ruffled some 

> feathers, especially "Rotax Dealer". If you're pitched to get off the 

> ground in 100 feet, then you're pitched to cruise at 65 mph! 

> Deke 

>

> ---

>     

 --------

 Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

 Flying Videos and Kitfox Info

 http://www.cfisher.com/

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175045#175045

GOOD going DAVE,,may be they should see your Videos as I have...and they 

would belive too.what the little 582 can do..DAVE keep up the good 

work...STEVE SHINABERY N554KF  KF2   with a nother little 582 rotax

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Short field take off : was 6

Thanks for the Kind words Steve . 



  I would like to see that on Video, --See the difference between me and others is that is put my camera where my mouth is.Some like it -- others do not . But At least I can verify what I say with a video.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

Lynn:



I can show you a couple of very small ponds.  I'm just hoping that when I

get the 912 in it will be able to get out as quickly as the 582.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Short field take off : was 6

Deke,  I would like you to video this on your  Kitfox 5 with Suberu. You got the  CAP prop so  lets  see it .  ?  



>> 	  Quote: 	
		  Sure, I could flatten out my prop and get 

the airplane off the ground in 100 feet and have something to brag about, 

but that's about all it is, bragging rights. I've tried every combination 

possible and I always come back to the same thing that works best in my 

situation.

Deke Morisse 

Mikado Michigan 

S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT 

 	


I can spout it out and prove it ,  Can you ?

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

At 06:48 PM 4/10/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I can spout it out and prove it ,  Can you ?


	


Dang Dave. I was hoping that because you didn't reply you'd let it 

slide. Please drop it. With all due respect, pissing matches are not allowed.

Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Short field take off : was 6

Guy, I am only adding to the comments that were made from Deke. 



I get numerous mails sent to  me laughing at the way you guys handle this forum.  



Why not start a poll or vote on moderators without an attitude ?

See the way I see it only the self appointed moderators can post criticism ?



Correct me if I am wrong, but you don't see me talking about my 27 years of aviation and how many hundreds of kitfox hours i have to puff out my chest.   If I did  I would be talking thousand of hours ,ratings, endorsements etc.........   -  I post stuff to help others not steal the limelight from certain  people .  Just ask John Mc bean if I promote Kitfox flying or not ? I guarantee you that I am an attribute to his business as we  all are. 

Hell, I fly a Kitfox the way it was designed to fly , I can guarantee you that I and not the only one that flys them this way either.   I can also guarantee you that many should learn to fly their airplane better just so they can enjoy them to the MAX. 



Why not we all try to get along eh ?    You were the one who was taking 700 feet to take off if I recalll?    I did the videos in the first place to show you that you must have had something  wring with your plane or flying to make such long take offs.

LarryM

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Genoa, IL

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Short field take off : was 6

Guy and all,



  With all due respect, I agree with Dave.  Let this forum post results.  I appreciate Dave and others who may agree or disagree with my perspective.  Gosh - how would we ever learn, grow, or have any revelations if we were only exposed to our own opinion expressed by others.  Dave can obviously prove what he claims.  You can see it.  If you don't want to fly that way - fine don't.  Many of us do.  I personally want to fly the airplane to the limit the designer intended.  When I find something that works/helps - I post it.  Hence this thread to start off with.  Perhaps others will benefit from my experience.  As a bonus, I find that not only do I learn from what I discovered, but also form this list especially when people take issue with what I report or thought that I knew.  Most recently was again this thread.  I thought that the fastest way off the ground is 3 point full flap.  I know it is for me and assumed it was for all.  But through the thread I learned that others can do it with the tail up.  Made me go back and try harder, read more, learn and come to my own conclusions - I can take off shorter with my airplane in the said configuration.  Granted I don't have to force that down your throat, but the acceptance or not  by the group  or individual doesn't make the findings less true.

  If some get offended, then like much in life - oh well.  Don't read the thread or post, or read it knowing that you may disagree.  Please don't sensor member opinions.  Just attack the spam stuff.  I do think that when one posts - one should be able to substantiate their claim.  But we also need the freedom to post. One of the responsibilities of being a member of this great group or any other in life is the freedom to be offended without crying for blood.  We all have different thresholds and have to respect that.  

   I think that I am starting to ramble on now.  Thank you for allowing me to try to express myself.  I hope that I was able to communicate my perspective with offense or/and rambling.



Go Fly!

larry

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

Dave sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Guy, I am only adding to the comments that were made from Deke.


	


No, you were telling Deke to put up or shut up.  Deke told you how 

his airplane performs and you demanded that he post a video to prove 

it to you.  That's the way juveniles behave.  If you don't believe 

him, that's your prerogative.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I get numerous mails sent to  me laughing at the way you guys handle 

this forum.  Why not start a poll or vote on moderators without an 

attitude ?


	


Excuse us if we don't care.  This forum is run for the benefit of the 

subscribers and that requires that every member behave like an adult. 

It's not a popularity contest.  If you want to start your own list 

you'd be free to choose the moderators in any way that you wish.



 	  Quote: 	
		  See the way I see it only the self appointed moderators can post criticism ?


	


Anyone can post criticism as long as it is respectful of others.  Guy 

felt you crossed the line and I agree with him.



Guy and I were not self-appointed, we were selected by the out-going 

moderators and we will choose our successors.  We were not chosen to 

be likeable nor were we chosen to run a democracy--we were chosen to 

run the list and keep it healthy.  Based on the number of subscribers 

we get every week, it seems to be working.



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...you don't see me talking about my 27 years of aviation and how 

many hundreds of kitfox hours i have to puff out my chest.


	


Credentials are not what is relevant here, it is behavior.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Why not we all try to get along eh ?


	


Good idea.  Treat Deke and all others on the list with respect and 

we'll get along just fine.  Be a smart ass and we have no room for 

you.



Mike G.

Kitfox List Moderator

kitfox(at)ida.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:19 pm Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

I tried to post some creative crit., Got ripped from one person. This list 

will die if we do not stop the nitpicking. Some of you people are a bad 

thing. Yes, get over it. You fly, you do not know everything, quite trying 

to prove to us short timers that you are aviatiors of the experimential 

nature, You are not. Just help us get these stupid kits in the air that 

everyone we buy parts from lies to us about. In the end, WE JUST WANT TO 

FLY.

Albert

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

Thank you Albert, I hope you feel better.  Now, let's get back to 

talking about Kitfoxes.



Mike G.

Kitfox List Moderator

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I tried to post some creative crit...Got ripped...This list will 

die...Just help us get these stupid kits in the air...everyone we 

buy parts from lies to us about...

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:47 am Post subject: Re: Short field take off : was 6

 	  Quote: 	
		   That's the way juveniles behave. If you don't believe 

him, that's your prerogative. 	




You are so Right with that statement Mike.  I think you should take action for your actions as well. 



I am not the one doing the offending here.   I hope I can be more of an inspiration for builders and other fliers , well I know I am.  I also think that some like you should help others rather that try to do a critique on them.  I have posted this before and it still the same. 



Deke had this statement   "Oops, I just reread my message and saw that I might have ruffled some 

feathers, especially "Rotax Dealer". If you're pitched to get off the 

ground in 100 feet, then you're pitched to cruise at 65 mph! 

Deke 

"



And that is So untrue.  That would be a totally Misleading statement for a new builder or flier and I  set the record straight.  So he  admitted to ruffling feathers but not you the moderator are trying to point the blame my way ?    OH PALLLLLLLLLLEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ..............

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: Short field take off : was 6" extension

As I recall, this offering was made a while ago, the offending person  

or persons started a new group, and he/they left this group...damned  

of I can remember who that was. Whatever happened to those guys and  

that group...oh well, this one's where the real Kitfox'ers are.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/487+ hrs/down for annual

do not archive

On Apr 12, 2008, at 12:53 AM, Michael Gibbs wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   If you want to start your own list you'd be free to choose the  

 moderators in any way that you wish.



 Mike G.

 Kitfox List Moderator

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Short field take off : was 6

 	  Quote: 	
		  Whatever happened to those guys and 

that group...oh well, this one's where the real Kitfox'ers are. 

Lynn Matteson 

	




That was John perry  and brother. there are 3 on that forum . I seen the one video  that one of them made on full lotus, looks like at least of one of them  flys and makes a Kitfox do what it was designed for , fly and fly well.  I forget site -- avid fox  flyers .com ?   i think

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum