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Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

As do I.



Also I forgot to say how sorry I am for your loss  PLAV8R. And thank you 

for sharing the photos.These photos may help us understand what happened.



Kevin Bonds



MHerder wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Do Not Archive



 I think that it would be appropriate to rephrase your statement.

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 03:36:18PM -0700, ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Whatever dude. Think about it, the entire spar ripped out of the thing,

 that was my point.


	


I'm not going to presume to speak for the others, but:



 	  Quote: 	
		   > > ashontz wrote:

 > > > So one wing pulled off at the root, and then the other took the

 > > > center spar with it out the plane when it went. Neat.


	


I would hardly apply the term "Neat." to such a situation, especially when

it was a part of the deaths of two people.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

This girl is sharp..... The thing that keeps coming up in my mind is these pics and god only know how many others are out there and if not for Donald providing them we would still not be viewing them. As builders of experimental planes we know these machines intimately. We can see things even the best NTSB guys might overlook, because we have been there, done that. Keeping pics, documents and other critical evidence hidden away from us seems counterproductive at best and deadly at worst.. Is it just me being paranoid??? 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



Look at Photo #28.    AN5-16A bolts have a defined thread length (17/32" I think).   The most outboard upper bolt has several threads showing--could it be that the AN5-16A's regular height nut was torqued against the last thread of the AN5-16A bolt rather than 6-B13-1?  Is it even an AN5-16A?





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178782#178782





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   [quote][b]

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

I have no experiance with this, but  post crash evidence has to be  difficult for

even experts to determine a cause. We've all seen engines ripped out of race cars and cars torn in half but that doesn't mean the car was poorly designed or constructed. I know these are difficult times for we XL builders, but I think we must rely on the experts if we are to learn anything from these disasters. I know if my plane was finished and flying, I would be one post flight inspection fanatic!!



Do not archive



Terry Turnquist

601-XL Plans



Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard 



On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 03:36:18PM -0700, ashontz wrote:

[quote] Whatever dude. Think about it, the entire spar ripped out of the thing,

 that was my          Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 05:11:25PM -0700, Terry Turnquist wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I know if my plane was finished and flying, I would be one post flight

 inspection fanatic!!


	


Okkay...so let's see if we can do some good between now and whenever we

learn a probable cause: What should we inspect on preflight/postflight,

above and beyond the usual?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

 	  ter_turn(at)yahoo.com wrote: 	
		  I think we must rely on the experts if we are to learn anything 	




Respectfully, we 601XL builders ARE the experts on the 601XL.  The NTSB guys are not. 



The one thing that we all can be 100% certain of is that the final NTSB report will be as useless as every other NTSB report has been on this matter.



I rarely use the term "100%" for anything, but in the case of the NTSB I am absolutely certain.  It's up to us - the 601XL experts.



Patrick

XL/Corvair

N63PZ

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

I wonder if any flight data was recovered from the GPS?



-- Craig



--

Aerolitellc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

It seems to me like we are trying hard to figure out a way to make  this a wing failure scenario. I have showed the photos to a couple of engineers  and they come to the same conclusion I did when I first saw the photos. That the  lack of damage to the aileron hinge as shown in the picture would lead you to  think the aileron exited the aircraft in cruise causing violent flutter and  separation of the wing. I would like to know where the aileron was found in  proximity to the wing. If the theory is correct it would be some distance behind  the wing. from the eye witness statements that also sounds like what happened,  the loud bang was the spar snapping at the attach point. If you look at the  photo's on the cabin floor you can clearly see stress from the rivets being torn  from there respective holes and you don't see this on the hinge so again I ask  could someone that assembled the plane put in the wrong rivets? If you install a  a 4 in a a 5 hole it will fill the hole and hold for a while but it will  eventually give way. The KR guys said there was a video of a plane doing a high  speed pass and the aileron separated from the wing and the aircraft tore itself  apart and disintegrated in a matter of seconds. 

 I am building a 601xl right now and am just a worried about the wing  separations as the rest of you but we have to remember that it only takes a few  minutes for things to go from bad to worse in the air. I think if we build them  correctly and fly them as intended you will never have a problem but cut a few  corners or install a part that is (Good enough) or even working when tired or  fatigued or mad might just be the difference that has us doing this  discussion.

  

 Jeff

 601xl Corvair

  



Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets

 attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at

 a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment

 causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron

 hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.


	


Okkay, so if we take this as a working hypothesis (and it seems reasonable),

how would someone go about testing it? Put a wing in an air tunnel?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets

 attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at

 a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment

 causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron

 hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.


	


Looking at picture 35, this does look like it could have happened that way.

Where was the left aileron found? What did it look like?



If this is the problem, how would it be fixed?



The ailerons in the XL are different from the ailerons in the other Zodiac

variants. The AMD XL, at least, also does not use the flexing skin hinge.

These would explain differences between the XL and the others, since

inflight breakups with no other apparent factors seem limited to the XL.



The Sun n Fun crash factual statement mentioned the aileron trim was at one

limit. Which aileron has the trim tab? Did N158MD have electric aileron

trim? (N55ZC will...)



The witness statements for the N357DT crash mention the right wing folding

up first. If this was indeed the case, any issue would have to be common to

both ailerons (or, perhaps, only if the aileron has or does not have a trim

tab).

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Now that you guys mention flutter, lets remember that there have been 2 cases of flutter in 601XL where the pilots survived to tell the story. Also, in the accident in Oakdale CA where an XL folded its wing and crashed, a witness stated that the wing "visibly vibrate" (Incident # LAX06LA105). So the flutter hypothesis is a very valid one.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard  



On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets

 attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at

 a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment

 causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron

 hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.


	


Looking at picture 35, this does look like it could have happened that way.

Where was the left aileron found? What did it look like?



If this is the problem, how would it be fixed?



The ailerons in the XL are different from the ailerons in the other Zodiac

variants. The AMD XL, at least, also does not use the flexing skin hinge.

These would explain differences between the XL and the others, since

inflight breakups with no other apparent factors seem limited to the [quote][b]

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

I would guess that if one of you who actually has or is building a 601 XL were to write the NTSB and voice your concerns regarding the integrity of the wing structure, that the letter would result in more than a perfunctory report.  I know several NTSB investigators personally, and I know that each of them has an incredible commitment to safety and to his or her job.

[quote] Subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

 From: pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:19:48 -0700

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt(at)yahoo.com>

 ter_turn(at)yahoo.com wrote:

 > I think we must rely on the experts if we are to learn anything 

 Respectfully, we 601XL builders ARE the experts on the 601XL. The NTSB guys are not. 

 The one thing that we all can be 100% certain of is that the final NTSB report will be as useless as every other NTSB report has been on this matter.

 I rarely use the term "100%" for anything, but in the case of the NTSB I am absolutely certain. It's up to us - the 601XL experts.

 Patrick

 XL/Corvair

 N63PZ

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178827#178827

 > 

Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 06:57:46AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Now that you guys mention flutter, lets remember that there have been 2

 cases of flutter in 601XL where the pilots survived to tell the story.


	


Oh? Tell us more. I don't recall these.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density altitudes.  For a discussion you might read http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf

 It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to look.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:51:24 -0500

 From: jmaynard(at)conmicro.com

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>

 On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:39:21AM -0700, rdobson wrote:

 > After viewing photos I wonder if the aileron fluttered causing the rivets

 > attaching it to rear spar to begin to unzip, stripping rivet heads one at

 > a time, causing wing tip rotation to over stress rear spar attachment

 > causing main spar to twist and bend . As previously stated the aileron

 > hinge looks too clean to have been firmly attached at impact.

 Okkay, so if we take this as a working hypothesis (and it seems reasonable),

 how would someone go about testing it? Put a wing in an air tunnel?

 -- 

 Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com

 http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net

 Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)

 AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

========================> 

Back to work after baby– how do you know when you’re ready?  [quote][b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:31 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:18:52AM -0400, Frank Roskind wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Flutter is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher

 true airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density

 altitudes.  For a discussion you might read

 http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf

 It doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to

 look.


	


Okkay...so what else would explain the results we see?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

bobefx(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

This brings up something I have been asking myself and now the group. What do all the aircraft have in common besides being XL's? I think we need to know all the common factors and see if the same thing is happening to each and every XL or what is different.

 1. Were all the suposed wing failures on kit or manufactured aircraft and not scratach built?

 2 Where did the materials for the craft come from? Who made the parts?

 etc.

 There are several questions that would lay the foundation for knowing or pinpointing the common thread if there is one. If not, then look at the design of the craft.

 It could be that all started as a kit from the same manufacture, of sub-contractor, who knowes. I think it is worth looking into. Find what is common to all 601XLs that have been suspect of folding or loosing wings.

 Not well sead but I hope the idea is understood.

  

  

 Bobefx

 601XL QB 3300A

 N642Z reserved

 do not archive

 ---

planes_by_ken(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

According to McCauley propellers, neither the attach bolts or dowel pins 

on a Cessna T210 drive the propeller.  The prop is driven by friction 

between the hub and flange developed by the nut torque clamping 

pressure.  A bolt that is not coming up to torque is only acting as a 

pin and not a clamp.  Also relative motion between parts would be a 

problem.  It would be interesting to see if there was any fretting 

corrosion between the spar and carrythru.

Ken Lilja



Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Look at Photo #28.    AN5-16A bolts have a defined thread length (17/32" I think).   The most outboard upper bolt has several threads showing--could it be that the AN5-16A's regular height nut was torqued against the last thread of the AN5-16A bolt rather than 6-B13-1?  Is it even an AN5-16A?

Aerolitellc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

In a message dated 4/24/2008 10:22:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.COM writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Flutter    is an interesting hypothesis, but flutter often occurs at higher true    airspeeds, which come from normal indicated airspeeds at high density    altitudes.  For a discussion you might read http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf

It    doesn't rule out flutter, but certainly makes it not the first place to    look.

	


 

 If one of the ailerons started to depart you would more than likely have  flutter. 



Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

rhodes1

Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 20
Location: Us

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Hi Don

   Sorry for your loss

I am building a 601XL Also had a Cessna 175 N7644M

And my name is Don also

Thanks Don



From: "PLAV8R" <donald.j.dennehey(at)seagate.com>

To: <zenith-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 2:12 AM

Subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <donald.j.dennehey(at)seagate.com>



 Hi Andy,



  My parents were not in the pattern,  They were in normal cruise flight. 

 The radar reflection indicated no change in altitude or direction. In any 

 phase of flight.

  Again, I am not trying to be negative.  I would just like to get some 

 answers or good information.

  This is a great group and I wish I had posted a long time ago.



 Thanks again, you guys are great.

 Don



 --------

 Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.

 Prior Lake, Minnesota

 Cessna 175  N7656M

 Cessna 140  N90123





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=178857#178857

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

The first incident happened to someone in this list (it is in the archive) when he flew over some sort of cooling tower of a power plant if I remember correctly. The other happened to the  AMD Zodiac based in Lantana airport. Scott Thatcher reported the incident in this list (also in the archives) after he spoke to people related to the incident. Search the archive with "flutter" or "Lantana" and you'll find the discussion. I'll do and post the link to the old messages when I get some time.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard 



On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 06:57:46AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:

[quote] Now that you guys mention flutter, lets [quote][b]

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

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