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bobefx(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: Who made the parts

That is what I am talking about. All were Kits. What was there origin? Who built the Kit? AMD does not build from scratch or do they. Did CZAW build the basic kit that was used to build the planes or where did they come from. No scratch builds have had the same problem, right? Who builds the kits for Zenith? They will not tell me who built my QB kit. It had a lot of Quality Control Problems and Poor workmanship. 

 They may all be XL but not all XL are losing wings. Find the common thread, it could be who manufactured the kit. The basic kit, the parts.

  

 Bobefx

 ---

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Who made the parts

The rivets...?

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: Who made the parts

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   AMD does not build from scratch or do they.


	


AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair in Canada.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

bobefx(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: Who made the parts

I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America.

 Bobefx 

 ---

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: Who made the parts

Bob,



Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC have all that CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico? What do you think they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed some real bad mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth.



Jay in Dallas

Bob Sturgis <bobefx(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



[quote]I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America.

Bobefx 

---

LHusky(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: Who made the parts

I stayed the whole day at the factory in Mexico, Missouri and watched them  make may of the components of the kit right there.  The CNC machine was  making nose ribs and they had different stations all over the factory.  I  also watched the fuel tanks being welded.  The main spar was not made there  and was done by someone else, but most of the kit is made on sight. 

  

 Larry Husky 

 N667H (Reserved) 

 601XL/O-200

  

  In a message dated 4/24/2008 1:41:17 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  bobefx(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        I    understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is    actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north    America.

   Bobefx 

   -----    Original Message ----

From: Jay Maynard    <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Sent:    Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:13:49 PM

Subject: Re: Who made the    parts



--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com (jmaynard(at)conmicro.com)>



On    Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:05:29AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   AMD does not    build from scratch or do they.


	


AMD builds from kits supplied by Zenair    in Canada.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                     http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      

 	  Quote: 	
		  



f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

johnd(at)data-tech.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: Who made the parts

Hi Jay,

 

 I think bob was referring to the QuickBuild kits which are outsourced. Mine was built by AeroLever in Columbia (south american not SC)

 

 John

 

 Jaybannist(at)cs.com (Jaybannist(at)cs.com) wrote: [quote]   [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist(at)cs.com (Jaybannist(at)cs.com)



Bob,



Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC have all that CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico? What do you think they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed some real bad mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth.



Jay in Dallas

Bob Sturgis <bobefx(at)yahoo.com> (bobefx(at)yahoo.com) wrote:



       [quote]I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I have been told that no kit is actuley made by Zenith or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America. Bobefx    ---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: Who made the parts

I believe it is mentioned in the archives somewhere that the spars are all

made by Zenith in Canada.



-- Craig



--

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: Who made the parts

For the QBKs I believe the parts are made in North America just like the kit parts and then shipped to AeroLeaver in Bogotá. You can see photos of the jigging and assembly process at AeroLeaver on Zenith’s web site here:  

   

http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-qbk.html  

   

Zenith has never made a secret of this. A caption on this page says “Fuselage construction jig at the AeroLeaver factory”:  

   

http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-qbk-photos1.html  

   

-- Craig  

       

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Davis

 Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:41 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Who made the parts  

  

  

   

Hi Jay,

 

 I think bob was referring to the QuickBuild kits which are outsourced. Mine was built by AeroLever in Columbia (south american not SC)

 

 John

 

 Jaybannist(at)cs.com (Jaybannist(at)cs.com) wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jaybannist(at)cs.com (Jaybannist(at)cs.com) Bob, Think about it. If all the kits are subcontracted, then why does ZAC have all that CNC and metal-forming equipment in their factory in Mexico? What do you think they are they making, lawn chairs? I think you have swallowed some real bad mis-information. Please don't pass it around as the truth. Jay in Dallas  Bob Sturgis <bobefx(at)yahoo.com> wrote: 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1  [quote] 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5[quote]---

bobefx(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Who made the parts

Jay, 

 Not passing as truth. Asking what I can't find out from Zenith. As posted on this site, a factory in Columbia seems to be the main manufacture at this time. Call and ask Roger who manufactures the kits and see what you get. 

 I hope they find an answer and I can feel good about building what I feel is a fun, first in class, good all-around aircraft. Zenith just be up front and answer questions with honesty.

  

 Bobefx

 ---

bobefx(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Who made the parts

Who puts together the QB kits?



 ---

PLAV8R

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Prior Lake, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Who made the parts

My question is,  is it possible that AMD may have received excess inventory (fuselage, wings, etc) from Czech Aircraft Works when Zodiac broke the affiliation?

_________________
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
don.dennehey@gmail.com
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:40 am Post subject: Who made the parts

Bob, I've been to the factory and seen them building

kit components  with my own eyes.  If you have such

concerns, a trip to Mexico, MO might be in order.



Doug MacDonald

CH-701 Scratch Builder

NW Ontario



DO NOT ARCHIVE



--- Bob Sturgis <bobefx(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



[quote] I understand that they subconrtact the kits out. I

 have been told that no kit is actuley made by Zenith

 or Zenair, it's all done outside of north America.

 Bobefx 

 

 

 ---

MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Who made the parts

 	  PLAV8R - wrote: 	
		  My question is,  is it possible that AMD may have received excess inventory (fuselage, wings, etc) from Czech Aircraft Works when Zodiac broke the affiliation? 	




You have read my mind, but this only explains the AMD and Czech incident then. There are still at least two more, one with an inexperienced pilot entering IMC which is more easily dismissed as pilot error.



Chris's recent letter eludes to possible usage of substandard materials by Czech and the excess inventory being passed on to AMD would be a possibility but this is all speculation.  



I am interested in finding out more about how the rear spar failed, but as it has already been stated the sequence of failures is critical.  Looking at a broken (main) wing spar can only tell you that the forces upon impact were great enough to break a spar which is not surprising.  It could also tell you that the forces subsequent to the initial failure applied loads in such a way that that the forces were sufficient to break a spar, which is also not suprising in the least. i.e. rear spar attach fails, then you pretty have a very large surface area with a very large moment arm free to rotate in just about any direction that is exposed to 140mph wind.  To me this is one of the more plausible theories. 



I would like to see Zenith and the NTSB rule out as many failure scenarios as possible and provide calculations and assumptions made as a basis for these calculations, but then again I have never asked for them so it is not to say that they are not available.

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Who made the parts

 	  PLAV8R - wrote: 	
		  My question is,  is it possible that AMD may have received excess inventory (fuselage, wings, etc) from Czech Aircraft Works when Zodiac broke the affiliation? 	




Don,



This is a very good question, you have read my mind. Chris's recent letter eludes to faulty materials being a POSSIBILITY.  If this is in fact the case, that MIGHT be a cause for both the Czech and AMD aircraft, but this still leaves us with 1 unexplained incident and one other with probable cause (flight into IMC by inexperienced pilot).  



As several have stated the sequence of failure must be determined. Simply looking at a broken spar will tell you nothing other than "the forces upon impact were severe enough to break a wing spar"  or "that the forces subsequent to the initial failure were sufficient to break the wing spar" which is not surprising in the least.   



Several have hypothesized that the rear spar attachment is the weak link, but it MUST be the first point of failure for this to be the case.  



IF there is anything wrong with the structure that needs to be fixed I would hope that it would be the rear spar connection since that would probably be one of the easiest scenarios to fix.  



Others have hypothesized that control surface flutter has lead to these incidents.  



I would have to say that even though I am not an expert in the field, I do have at minimum a basic understanding of structures and neither of these hypothesis are unfathomable.  



If there isn't a design flaw it may be a simple maintenance issue and specific area to check for fatigue more frequently (ie rear spar attach). 



If there is a design flaw, I believe that it will be relatively simple to correct.   But more importantly I believe that the folks at Zenith are upstanding folks who will do the right thing.  They want to know too.  I also believe that if it weren't for these incidents, the XL would probably be a top seller if not the top seller in the light sport market (I LOVE THE DESIGN and PERFORMANCE and ECONOMY), so there is no doubt that it is hurting them in my mind.  If there is any one thing that I would like for Zenith and the NTSB to do, it would be to release more accident photos and to rule out as many failure scenarios as possible.  In ruling out the possible failure scenarios, I would also like to see some of the calculations and assumptions that were made in ruling out a failure mode.



1 thing that we know with certainty is that there have been wing failures.



To me this only leaves 3 possible scenarios:



1) Pilot error (not impossible but improbable for ALL 4 incidents).  Why have these pilot errors not shown up in the similar HD and HDS models.  Meaning the aircraft was stressed beyond limits?



2) Design flaw  (structure not adequate to resist forces using the materials specified as designed)



3)  Substandard Material/Workmanship Substandard/Maintenance (Anything that isn't a design flaw or pilot error)



4)  Did I miss anything?[/b]

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: Who made the parts

I threw out a hypothesis that the crack might initiate on the upper surface of the main spar in response to landing forces, because a significant design change between the HD and the XL was the landing gear.  I know the 2000 and the 640 also hace the spring gear, but there might be some difference.  Perhaps the gear is stiffer relative to actual flying weight, so a landing with a light airplane might cause a very brief, very high apparent acceleration of the wing relative to the fuselage, with a lot of torque compared to the HD landing gear.  This is analogous to how the top surface of rails cracks in response to heavy loads imposed downward, which one might be given to believe would crack the base of rails, but the far more common cracks initiate on the top surface.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Who made the parts

 From: michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com

 Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:20:00 -0700

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "MHerder" <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com>

 PLAV8R - wrote:

 > My question is, is it possible that AMD may have received excess inventory (fuselage, wings, etc) from Czech Aircraft Works when Zodiac broke the affiliation?

 Don,

 This is a very good question, you have read my mind. Chris's recent letter eludes to faulty materials being a POSSIBILITY. If this is in fact the case, that MIGHT be a cause for both the Czech and AMD aircraft, but this still leaves us with 1 unexplained incident and one other with probable cause (flight into IMC by inexperienced pilot). 

 As several have stated the sequence of failure must be determined. Simply looking at a broken spar will tell you nothing other than "the forces upon impact were severe enough to break a wing spar" or "that the forces subsequent to the initial failure were sufficient to break the wing spar" which is not surprising in the least. 

 Several have hypothesized that the rear spar attachment is the weak link, but it MUST be the first point of failure for this to be the case. 

 IF there is anything wrong with the structure that needs to be fixed I would hope that it would be the rear spar connection since that would probably be one of the easiest scenarios to fix. 

 Others have hypothesized that control surface flutter has lead to these incidents. 

 I would have to say that even though I am not an expert in the field, I do have at minimum a basic understanding of structures and neither of these hypothesis are unfathomable. 

 If there isn't a design flaw it may be a simple maintenance issue and specific area to check for fatigue more frequently (ie rear spar attach). 

 If there is a design flaw, I believe that it will be relatively simple to correct. But more importantly I believe that the folks at Zenith are upstanding folks who will do the right thing. They want to know too. I also believe that if it weren't for these incidents, the XL would probably be a top seller if not the top seller in the light sport market (I LOVE THE DESIGN and PERFORMANCE and ECONOMY), so there is no doubt that it is hurting them in my mind. If there is any one thing that I would like for Zenith and the NTSB to do, it would be to release more accident photos and to rule out as many failure scenarios as possible. In ruling out the possible failure scenarios, I would also like to see some of the calculations and assumptions that were made in ruling out a failure mode.

 1 thing that we know with certainty is that there have been wing failures.

 To me this only leaves 3 possible scenarios:

 1) Pilot error (not impossible but improbable for ALL 4 incidents). Why have these pilot errors not shown up in the similar HD and HDS models. Meaning the aircraft was stressed beyond limits?

 2) Design flaw (structure not adequate to resist forces using the materials specified as designed)

 3) Substandard Material/Workmanship Substandard/Maintenance (Anything that isn't a design flaw or pilot error)

 4) Did I miss anything?[/b]

 --------

 One Rivet at a Time!

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179131#179131

&====================

[quote] 

Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize!   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: Who made the parts

Have you also thought about the fact that the fuel tanks are in the wings  of the XL and would impose a heavy load on the spar during a hard landing?  Jerry   

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

  In a message dated 4/25/2008 10:52:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.COM writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I threw    out a hypothesis that the crack might initiate on the upper surface of the    main spar in response to landing forces, because a significant design change    between the HD and the XL was the landing gear.  I know the 2000 and the    640 also hace the spring gear, but there might be some difference.     Perhaps the gear is stiffer relative to actual flying weight, so a landing    with a light airplane might cause a very brief, very high apparent    acceleration of the wing relative to the fuselage, with a lot of torque    compared to the HD landing gear.  This is analogous to how the top    surface of rails cracks in response to heavy loads imposed downward, which one    might be given to believe would crack the base of rails, but the far more    common cracks initiate on the top surface.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Zenith-List:    Re: Who made the parts

 From: michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com

 Date:    Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:20:00 -0700

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

    

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "MHerder"    <michaelherder(at)beckgroup.com>

 

 

 PLAV8R -    wrote:

 > My question is, is it possible that AMD may have received    excess inventory (fuselage, wings, etc) from Czech Aircraft Works when Zodiac    broke the affiliation?

 

 

 Don,

 

 This is    a very good question, you have read my mind. Chris's recent letter eludes to    faulty materials being a POSSIBILITY. If this is in fact the case, that MIGHT    be a cause for both the Czech and AMD aircraft, but this still leaves us with    1 unexplained incident and one other with probable cause (flight into IMC by    inexperienced pilot). 

 

 As several have stated the sequence of    failure must be determined. Simply looking at a broken spar will tell you    nothing other than "the forces upon impact were severe enough to break a wing    spar" or "that the forces subsequent to the initial failure were sufficient to    break the wing spar" which is not surprising in the least. 

 

    Several have hypothesized that the rear spar attachment is the weak link, but    it MUST be the first point of failure for this to be the case. 

    

 IF there is anything wrong with the structure that needs to be fixed    I would hope that it would be the rear spar connection since that would    probably be one of the easiest scenarios to fix. 

 

 Others have    hypothesized that control surface flutter has lead to these incidents.    

 

 I would have to say that even though I am not an expert in    the field, I do have at minimum a basic understanding of structures and    neither of these hypothesis are unfathomable. 

 

 If there isn't    a design flaw it may be a simple maintenance issue and specific area to check    for fatigue more frequently (ie rear spar attach). 

 

 If there    is a design flaw, I believe that it will be relatively simple to correct. But    more importantly I believe that the folks at Zenith are upstanding folks who    will do the right thing. They want to know too. I also believe that if it    weren't for these incidents, the XL would probably be a top seller if not the    top seller in the light sport market (I LOVE THE DESIGN and PERFORMANCE and    ECONOMY), so there is no doubt that it is hurting them in my mind. If there is    any one thing that I would like for Zenith and the NTSB to do, it would be to    release more accident photos and to rule out as many failure scenarios as    possible. In ruling out the possible failure scenarios, I would also like to    see some of the calculations and assumptions that were made in ruling out a    failure mode.

 

 1 thing that we know with certainty is that    there have been wing failures.

 

 To me this only leaves 3    possible scenarios:

 

 1) Pilot error (not impossible but    improbable for ALL 4 incidents). Why have these pilot errors not shown up in    the similar HD and HDS models. Meaning the aircraft was stressed beyond    limits?

 

 2) Design flaw (structure not adequate to resist    forces using the materials specified as designed)

 

 3)    Substandard Material/Workmanship Substandard/Maintenance (Anything that isn't    a design flaw or pilot error)

 

 4) Did I miss    anything?[/b]

 

 --------

 One Rivet at a Time!

    

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

    

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179131#179131

    

 

 

 

 

    

&====================
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


      Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize!  	  Quote: 	
		  



f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

PLAV8R

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Prior Lake, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Who made the parts

Hi,

  I agree.  Please read my other post on Yuba City Photos ( I think there are 67 or so responses on it)



Thanks to all for being open minded, I am.  I can handle any solid conclusion.  Of course, I would not want to hear "Pilot Error", but I can accept it if someone can prove it to me.



Thanks,

Don

_________________
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
don.dennehey@gmail.com
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Who made the parts

Don excuse me if I'm getting a little confused here but was your father's accident the one that reported the aileron trim was all the way against the stop? If so had he ever mentioned that he had to fly it that way with two people on board?



I wonder if he had a runaway trim and had problems over coming it?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

PLAV8R

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Prior Lake, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Who made the parts

No....I think that was the Polk City (not Positive).  In fact, I talked to my brother yesterday and it was in the neutral position.

_________________
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
don.dennehey@gmail.com
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123

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