Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Grades of Nuts & Bolts

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Grades of Nuts & Bolts
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

graham(at)601hd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:59 pm Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

I've been looking through AC 43.13 hoping to find a section where it says

that it is not necessary to use AN nuts and bolts on non structural parts of

the airframe.  I cant find it.  I'm interested in knowing what others have

others done when it comes to attaching things like Adel clamps and grounding

wires. 

Thanks

Graham Kirby

601HD

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

For non-structural items that might be exposed to moisture, I have generally

used general purpose stainless fasteners with a little anti-sieze compound

on the threads. Inside where they won't be exposed to moisture, I have

usually used zinc plated fasteners. I see no reason to use An fasteners in

these applications.

-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.

do not archive.

on 3/4/06 12:54 AM, Graham Kirby at graham(at)601hd.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I've been looking through AC 43.13 hoping to find a section where it says

 that it is not necessary to use AN nuts and bolts on non structural parts of

 the airframe.  I cant find it.  I'm interested in knowing what others have

 others done when it comes to attaching things like Adel clamps and grounding

 wires. 

 Thanks

 Graham Kirby

 601HD

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

btucke73(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

Graham,



     I used standard grade 8 bolts for axles.  When

the DAR came around for my mid build inspection, I

told him that I was going to put castle nuts on the

bolts as soon as I found some.  He stated that not

only is grade 8 hardware acceptable, but I could

simply tighten the nut properly, and drill a hole

through the nut and bolt and throw in a cotter pin. 

It is nice having a common sense DAR in my EAA chapter

who is free!



R/



Brandon



Got my engine running today!

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:04 am Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

Joe, what would be your take on this?  If he is using a grade 8 bolt for the 

axle itself, I have some real heart burn.  It is true that 8's have stronger 

tensile strength than AN but the are more brittle.



I can clearly remember the plane that came into the Repair at Oshkosh 

because the prop was " a little loose." Took off the spinner on the wood 

prop and found many problems. 5 of the 6 bolts had broken.  They were all 

grade 8s.  The remaining bolt that keep the plane out of Lake Winnebago as 

the pilot flew over from the East was an old tougher AN. The 8's had all 

fractured!



Cy



---

btucke73(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

Cy,

 

      I would not use grade 8 on the prop for exactly the reasons you mentioned.   Initially, I ordered some "Axles" from Great Plains, and they promptly sent me grade 5 bolts (undrilled) with a castle nut, in the wrong size... 

 

 R/

 

 Brandon

 

 

 do not archive

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

Hunt Malcolm wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Dear threads



A slightly related topic.



I'm building the dual stick version of the CH601XL and have a query on

the material for the tie rods.  Current drawing show 5/16" stainless

threaded rod (no grade given for the stainless), a change from the

original drawings which just called up steel.  The photo manual gives

the information as HT steel.



Can anyone advise what is being supplied in the kits and if the

stainless is being used (as in the aileron rods) for better thread

quality.



My proposal is to use 5/16" 4130N rod and thread the ends but I will

have to convince my inspector this is satisfactory.



Any thoughts?



Regards



Malcolm Hunt

CH601XL Plans Builder in England



  



 Malcolm,
	




   Your use of 5/16-inch 4130 rod for threaded connectors should be more 

than ample

strength wise.  You're not using the rod for anything as tough as 

required for prop bolts and

It should hold up rather well.  I'd not use regular hot rolled or heat 

treated rod because you would

not know just how well the heat treat went without extensively testing 

it.  Stainless is tougher and would also

work well in threaded connections if you don't have to weld or rivet it 

at the other end.



Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

Remember most stainless has considerably less tensil strengh than 4130 or Grade

8.  I quite often use grade 8 bolts in structural applications, but I purchase

longe enough bolts where the threaded area is NOT load bearing and cut off the

excess threads. Take this advise for the value you paid for it.  Bob U. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hunt Malcolm wrote:



>


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  >

>Dear threads

>

>A slightly related topic.

>

>I'm building the dual stick version of the CH601XL and have a query on

>the material for the tie rods.  Current drawing show 5/16" stainless

>threaded rod (no grade given for the stainless), a change from the

>original drawings which just called up steel.  The photo manual gives

>the information as HT steel.

>

>Can anyone advise what is being supplied in the kits and if the

>stainless is being used (as in the aileron rods) for better thread

>quality.

>

>My proposal is to use 5/16" 4130N rod and thread the ends but I will

>have to convince my inspector this is satisfactory.

>

>Any thoughts?

>

>Regards

>

>Malcolm Hunt

>CH601XL Plans Builder in England

>

>  

>

 Malcolm,



   Your use of 5/16-inch 4130 rod for threaded connectors should be more 

than ample

strength wise.  You're not using the rod for anything as tough as 

required for prop bolts and

It should hold up rather well.  I'd not use regular hot rolled or heat 

treated rod because you would

not know just how well the heat treat went without extensively testing 

it.  Stainless is tougher and would also

work well in threaded connections if you don't have to weld or rivet it 

at the other end.



Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

One of the problems that Malcolm has to endure is every change has to be 

approved by the PFA. He is in England where the plans have to be approved. 

No deviations permitted without their approval. Even have to hire their test 

pilot to fly off the test hours.



Cy Galley

EAA Safety Programs Editor

Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot

---

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

And, as with previous experiences, with our other friend, Richard Mc in 

the U.K., Zenith

will not answer technical questions put to them, even on a Zenith 

aircraft.  Not sure what the

problem is here..................



Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive

cgalley wrote:



[quote]



One of the problems that Malcolm has to endure is every change has to be 

approved by the PFA. He is in England where the plans have to be approved. 

No deviations permitted without their approval. Even have to hire their test 

pilot to fly off the test hours.



Cy Galley

EAA Safety Programs Editor

Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot

---

JERICKSON03E(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

Has anyone had a problem with the metric bolts used for the Warp Drive prop 

on the 912 or 912S?

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

I am really surprised by your problem with Zenith.  They have always 

been very responsive to me.



Perhaps you need to include your serial  number with your inquiry?



Paul

Xl wings



 	  Quote: 	
		  And, as with previous experiences, with our other friend, Richard Mc in

the U.K., Zenith

will not answer technical questions put to them, even on a Zenith

aircraft.  Not sure what the

problem is here..................



Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive


	


-----

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

No, not at all. What problem do you had?

   

  Saludos

  Gary Gower



JERICKSON03E(at)aol.com wrote:

  



Has anyone had a problem with the metric bolts used for the Warp Drive prop 

on the 912 or 912S?

		

---------------------------------

 Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

Larry Martin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 31
Location: Cabot, Arkansas

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

There is another under laying cause for the "breaking" of the grade 8 bolts. 

It's not the fact that they are grade 8 alone.  Probably not the right size, 

not torqued properly, over torqued, no locking nuts, pins, etc, or a 

combination of the aforementioned.  Somebody forgot to do something.  Six 

properly install 3/8" grade 8 bolts would not be the problem.



Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com

_________________
701 with a Harley, www.skyhawg.com

david_a_g_johnson(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:26 am Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

If you are in the U.K. Zenith simply don't want to know. Our kits are

supplied by CZAW and they provide tech. support which I have always found to

be very good.



I tried to buy the rivet puller with the formed heads from Zenith - ordered

it on-line, order accepted etc. Months later no sign of it, when I queried

it was told they wouldn't supply until I signed some form.



If you are a U.K. builder and need help, contact Milan at CZAW, E-mail is

qm(at)czaw.cz



Dave Johnson



do not archive



--

richard(at)rodsley.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:25 am Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

Agreed



If you are in the UK you can forget Zenith completely. We had a serious 

problem and they simply refused to answer or even acknowledge any 

communications.



The UK distributor is equally useless but the Czech people are excellent.



Richard



---

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

There is another under laying cause for the "breaking" of the grade 8 

bolts. 

It's not the fact that they are grade 8 alone.  Probably not the right size, 

not torqued properly, over torqued, no locking nuts, pins, etc, or a 

combination of the aforementioned.  Somebody forgot to do something.  Six 

properly install 3/8" grade 8 bolts would not be the problem.



Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

This problem all came up several years ago for one big reason. There were some bogus companies fromaround the globe manufacturing poor quality bolts and marking them as grade8 to increase their profit margin. This first surfaced in the racing comunity because of the nature of the business. We strived to hold the car/boat or whatever racing craft together with the best stuff  for safety and durability. We assumed the wholesaler was honest and we quickly found out that was not the case. This started the whole debate on grade8 being inferior. Aircraft stuff had a far better way to deal with quality control, that was to hold the manufacturer, wholesaler to a paper trail of traceability. Even that didn't stop all the fraud to happen but it was a lot less in that market. Some companies were charged and found guilty. There was even one that was based in the far east where the owner did fall on the sword. It turned out all the people who bought for the major manufacturers like  Dorman, ARP,Fastenal, and others didn't experience the same level of poor quality stuff. As cy pointed out the incident in question was found to have one AN bolt that didn't fail and five other ones that were marked as grade8 but turned out to be of far less quality. Funny how that part of the story never lives on like the rest of it does.

 

do not archive



There is another under laying cause for the "breaking" of the grade 8 

bolts. 

It's not the fact that they are grade 8 alone. Probably not the right size, 

not torqued properly, over torqued, no locking nuts, pins, etc, or a 

combination of the aforementioned. Somebody forgot to do something. Six 

properly install 3/8" grade 8 bolts would not be the problem.



Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////





This problem all came up several years ago for one big reason. There were some bogus companies fromaround the globe manufacturing poor quality bolts and marking them as grade8 to increase their profit margin. This first surfaced in the racing comunity because of the nature of the business. We strived to hold the car/boat or whatever racing craft together with the best stuff for safety and durability. We assumed the wholesaler was honest and we quickly found out that was not the case. This started the whole debate on grade8 being inferior. Aircraft stuff had a far better way to deal with quality control, that was to hold the manufacturer, wholesaler to a paper trail of traceability. Even that didn't stop all the fraud to happen but it was a lot less in that market. Some companies were charged and found guilty. There was even one that was based in the far east where the owner did fall on the sword. It turned out all the people who bought for the major manufacturers like Dorman, ARP,Fastenal, and others didn't experience the same level of poor quality stuff. As cy pointed out the incident in question was found to have one AN bolt that didn't fail and five other ones that were marked as grade8 but turned out to be of far less quality. Funny how that part of the story never lives on like the rest of it does.



do not archive

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

Just a note that it is very difficult to break a bolt in service due to

over torquing...USUALLY IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE UNDER TORQUED. The

torques listed for AN hardware is extremly low IMO. OK in shear

applications (most of the airframe) but not in cyclic tension

applications like a prop hub or something.



It goes like this...For a cyclicly tesioned bolt the torque should be

high enough such that the tension in the fastener is higher than is seen

in service. I.e when a cylinder head is torqued down the tension in the

studs (bolts) is always the same because the pre tension in the bolt is

higher than is caused by the combustion process. If the tension is less

than the cyclic load the bolt will eventually fail due to the repetive

cyclic forces the fastener sees.



Lesson...Always make sure your bolts (in cyclic load applications) are

torqued properly and er on the side of over torquing rather than under

torquing if your unsure or have no choice such as when using a castle

nut and cotter pin



Frank 



--

JERICKSON03E(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:07 am Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

In a message dated 3/6/2006 9:37:44 PM Central Standard Time, 

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com writes:



No, not at all. What problem do you had?

   

  Saludos

  Gary Gower

Gary, No problem as they are not yet installed.



My question was sent to add the metric bolts to the subject, rather than to 

ignore them.



Prop bolts are the ones we need to know about, and maintain often.



Do you happen to know how the metric bolts fit into the grade 8/ AN/MS 

strength question?



Regards, Jerry

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

You are correct but since things don't always get the proper treatment, it 

was interesting to find the bolt that lasted the longest was the less 

brittle, tougher AN bolt which is legal for a prop. Class 8s are not legal 

for certified.



Cy Galley - Chair,

Air Emergency Aircraft Repair

A Service Project of Chapter 75

EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC

EAA Sport Pilot

---

Larry Martin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 31
Location: Cabot, Arkansas

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: Grades of Nuts & Bolts

Granted, grade 8s are not legal for certified, but we are not doing 

certified aircraft.

I have seen several comments about grade 8 bolts being brittle.  Well they 

are not, potato chips are brittle.  Grade 8s have a strength of 2800 psi, AN 

,2600 psi, grade 5,  2500 psi.  That relates to the grade 8 being only 

around 7% harder than an AN bolt.  Yesterday I took a 3/8" X 5" grade eight 

bolt, put it in a vise, took a larger hammer, bent it over to 45 degree 

angle, bent it back somewhat straight, bent it over again and back.  No 

visible cracks, didn't break.   Brittle is definitely not the right word. 

If I could go to any store around here and but AN bolts, I would.  They are 

just not available unless you order them.

Anyway, I think this horse has been beat to death.



Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com



---

_________________
701 with a Harley, www.skyhawg.com

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum