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Aerobatics?

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dstasch

Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Aerobatics?

Hello,



I'm planning to purchase the 601xl rudder kit next month but the one thing bothering me about if I'm choosing the right plane for me is it's lack of aerobatic ability.



I chose the 601xl for the sport pilot category, metal construction, side-by-side seating, cost, looks, there is a factory in America (nothing against foreign it just sounds expensive ) and I'm sure a few other things that I can't think of right now.  And of course this great list where I can come to ask all my dumb questions 



I can't find a plane more intriguing to me to build than the 601lx but I have a bit of an addiction for aerobatics.  I'm talking about just light stuff loops, rolls, spins etc...



I've looked at few other kits:



Kitfox - Non metal and I kind of prefer low wing



Century - looks nice, not much info. I can't even find it on the web again.



RV-12 - Not finished yet and I couldn't find much about it's aerobatic abilities.



Rans S-19 - looks nice but a little expensive



Sonex - Not sure why but not the plane for me



Cri Cri - not really but I think this is a cool looking little plane



http://flight.cz/cricri/english/cri-cri-photos-pictures-secchi.php

My plan now is to build a 601xl for x-country flights and taking family and friends for rides, then perhaps renting an Aerobat occasionally for my loop and spin cravings.



I understand the trade-offs and that you can't have it ALL in one plane, but I wish to make sure I didn't overlook another plane that would be a better fit for me.



Any suggestions or links you may have would be greatly appreciated.  If not, I can't wait to order the rudder kit 



Take care,

David

bjohnson(at)satx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: Aerobatics?

You may want to think again about the "not sure" one.



http://youtube.com/watch?v=a6LMEho9DrU



-Bruce



--

TxDave

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 168
Location: Temple, TX

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Aerobatics?

David,



The Sonex is definitely worth looking at if you're into aerobatics. I won't say any more since this is a Zenith list. Feel free to contact me off list.



Dave Clay

Andrewlieser

Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Chicagoland

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: Re: Aerobatics?

David,

I've flown in several Sonex' and actually purchased a set of plans for one but after much debate amongst myself I chose to go with the XL for the same reason you plan on.  While I agree the Sonex is better acrobatically you WILL get a workout on any x country you would fly in one.  They are very pitch sensitive although fun.  From a passenger stand point the XL easily excels beyond any shadow of a doubt past the Sonex.  I took my wife up in a Sonex (she's not a pilot, only a passenger when I'm lucky) and she said it was way to unstable for her to go anywhere with me, as is not the case with the XL.  The RV 12 probably will be a nice airplane but it appears as though VANS is shying away from builders putting it together as an E-AB rather just an E-LSA so you might be limited by that.  E mail me if want any other info. 



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Aerobatics?

I'm a bit confused by this statement Andrew. Maybe I'm just parsing it wrong but are you saying that Van's wants this to be an E-LSA and not an E-AB? If so, is Van's going to build a completed S-LSA that is required for there to be an E-LSA? 



 	  Andrewlieser wrote: 	
		  David,

The RV 12 probably will be a nice airplane but it appears as though VANS is shying away from builders putting it together as an E-AB rather just an E-LSA so you might be limited by that.  E mail me if want any other info. 



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

bjohnson(at)satx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: Aerobatics?

Yup,



You can read about it on vansaircraft.com; but basically since the FAA has

declared a moratorium on new kit evaluations for the "rubber stamp"

certification of the 51% measurement, Vans made a business decision to make

it's new offering what I'm pretty sure will be the first "true" E-LSA.  As

of now, they do not intend to sell s-LSAs, just produce and certify one, so

the E-LSA can be produced legally.



The downside of this for the builder is the E-LSA must be built exactly like

the original S-LSA down to the engine and instruments.  The upside is a 5 hr

test period, & the availability of a class to do maintenance and annuals for

future buyers.



-Bruce



--

Andrewlieser

Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Chicagoland

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Aerobatics?

Gig,



This was the excerpt from the SNF Vans Brochure: 

 In February 2008, the FAA instituted a moratorium on reviewing new kits for compliance with Experimental-Amateur Built

category.

This has left Van’s Aircraft only one option;

to pursue licensing in the Experimental Light

Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) category. We are

submitting the RV-12 prototype for Special

Light Sport Aircraft (S-SLA) approval and

expect to have it soon. When this is received,

RV-12 builders may build and license

conforming airplanes in the E-LSA

category.

Although the E-LSA category does not permit

builders to vary from the kit or plans (no

unapproved engines, propellers, etc. are allowed)



VANS says the "burden of proof shall be solely on the builder" on their website with reference to the E-AB licensing.  They DON'T specifically say that its not possible though and goes as far as saying that it should be probable.



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Aerobatics?

The other side of this coin, is that the builder can decide whether 

to certify his kit built plane as E-AB even if the kit is not 

pre-approved.  All he needs to do is convince the DAR or Inspector 

that he did 51% of the work.  If the RV-12 is anything like the other 

kits Van makes then this should be no problem at all.  It takes some 

photos and a builder's log just like any other kit or scratch built plane.



I spoke with Van's brother at a meeting last week over this issue.  I 

think they are a little bit confused over the question of what a 

Sport Pilot can fly vs. what kind of airworthiness certificate a 

plane has.  So long as the plane in question meets the definition of 

LSA it just doesn't matter what kind of airworthiness certificate the 

plane has.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive

At 07:02 AM 5/8/2008, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  You can read about it on vansaircraft.com; but basically since the FAA has

declared a moratorium on new kit evaluations for the "rubber stamp"

certification of the 51% measurement, Vans made a business decision to make

it's new offering what I'm pretty sure will be the first "true" E-LSA.  As

of now, they do not intend to sell s-LSAs, just produce and certify one, so

the E-LSA can be produced legally.



The downside of this for the builder is the E-LSA must be built exactly like

the original S-LSA down to the engine and instruments.  The upside is a 5 hr

test period, & the availability of a class to do maintenance and annuals for

future buyers.



-Bruce

zenith601xl(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: Aerobatics?

Just sitting in the Sonex was enough to eliminate it from my decision process.  It is a 1.5 place airplane and was uncomfortable for just me alone.  The seat is bolt upright and not comfortable at all.  It would make a fun single seat aerobatic toy with a modified seat.  The 601XL by contrast was the most comfortable lsa qualified plane I could find at Sun 'n Fun when I was doing my research.

   

 Dennis

 On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 9:17 PM, dstasch <zstasch(at)yahoo.com (zstasch(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "dstasch" <zstasch(at)yahoo.com (zstasch(at)yahoo.com)>

 

Hello,



I'm planning to purchase the 601xl rudder kit next month but the one thing bothering me about if I'm choosing the right plane for me is it's lack of aerobatic ability.



I chose the 601xl for the sport pilot category, metal construction, side-by-side seating, cost, looks, there is a factory in America (nothing against foreign it just sounds expensive ) and I'm sure a few other things that I can't think of right now.  And of course this great list where I can come to ask all my dumb questions 

 

I can't find a plane more intriguing to me to build than the 601lx but I have a bit of an addiction for aerobatics.  I'm talking about just light stuff loops, rolls, spins etc...



I've looked at few other kits:

 

Kitfox - Non metal and I kind of prefer low wing



Century - looks nice, not much info. I can't even find it on the web again.



RV-12 - Not finished yet and I couldn't find much about it's aerobatic abilities.

 

Rans S-19 - looks nice but a little expensive



Sonex - Not sure why but not the plane for me



Cri Cri - not really but I think this is a cool looking little plane



http://flight.cz/cricri/english/cri-cri-photos-pictures-secchi.php

 



My plan now is to build a 601xl for x-country flights and taking family and friends for rides, then perhaps renting an Aerobat occasionally for my loop and spin cravings.



I understand the trade-offs and that you can't have it ALL in one plane, but I wish to make sure I didn't overlook another plane that would be a better fit for me.

 

Any suggestions or links you may have would be greatly appreciated.  If not, I can't wait to order the rudder kit 



Take care,

David





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181832#181832

  [quote][b]

dstasch

Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Aerobatics?

DO NOT ARCHIVE (forgot to put that in my initial post)



Thank you for all your responses both here and through e-mail, you've been very reassuring in my decision to go with the 601xl!



I did receive a lot of advice regarding SONEX - both good and bad.  



SONEX was the first plane I looked at when I started researching my project and if I were building just for myself, I believe SONEX would be a great choice.  However I realized that most of the time I'm flying, I have a passenger riding along with me.  The majority of my flying is either x-country, scenic flights, or just being out to give people a ride.  It would seem that not too many of my friends or family are interested in doing a loop or spin along the way, which is why I believe the 601xl is the better choice for me right now.  It'll be more comfortable for my passengers and has a bit more of a factory look that I expect will be a less scary to my mom than the more homebuilt look of the SONEX 



I have gathered most of my tools to start and I'm excited to be ordering the rudder kit next month.  I also expect you all will be hearing a lot from me over the next 20 or 30 years it takes me to complete this project 



Thanks again!



Take care,

David

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Aerobatics?

dstasch <zstasch(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "dstasch" 



DO NOT ARCHIVE (forgot to put that in my initial post)



Thank you for all your responses both here and through e-mail, you've been very reassuring in my decision to go with the 601xl!



I did receive a lot of advice regarding SONEX - both good and bad. 	
  David,

   

  Glad you have decided on the XL over the Sonex.  I''m positive if you ever rode in an XL, you would be totally sold on it.  I was in Mexico MO last week and Roger gave me a ride in their demonstrator.  I've flown and ridden in several Light Sport aircraft and this one IS the best ride of all.  

   

  I would be placing my order for any kit as soon as you can.  The lead  times are getting longer and longer on most of the component kits.  I had ordered my rudder kit and that took only a couple of weeks to arrive.  I completed that and KNEW this was the kit for me.  I ordered the tail kit next.  That took approximately 9 weeks to arrive.  I ordered my wing section on Dec 4th and just picked that up at the factory last week.  I am being told by Joyce at Zenith, there is an 18 week lead time for the fuselage section.  I'd suggest you order as far ahead as you possibly can.  Joyce said they are starting to receive a lot of orders from Russia now, so your timing of your components is the thing that might hold you back from building.  If I could have, I would have ordered the entire aircraft the first time.  I don't have all that much room in my garage without kicking my wife out of it.  Gotta keep the wife happy, yah know? 

   

  Happy building!

    

  

 

 

  Larry Hursh 

  CH601XL (Building from Kits - Just beginning)

  (N601LL Reserved) 

SkyriderSBN(at)Yahoo.com (SkyriderSBN(at)Yahoo.com)

   

  Keep your eyes skyward - always!

  Do Not Archive

   



         Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

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