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Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

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yodaone

Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Pompano Beach,FL

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

Have a Classic Kitfox IV 1050lb 100% completed.

Thinking of clipping the wing and installing a Speedster wing tip.

Does anyone have a diagram of the Speedster wing measurements?

Also in the process of installing a radiator scoop for the Rotax 912ul.

Kitfox has the tips for $170 each, plus $350 for hardware.

_________________
1991 Kitfox IV 1050LB
Rotax 912UL

jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraf
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

Sorry for the mis-understanding... $350 was for the Wing tip kit.. that

includes the tips...



Fly Safe !!

John & Debra McBean

Ph 208.337.5111

www.kitfoxaircraft.com 

"The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground" 



--

Michael Logan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 82

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

Put the wingtip on without clipping the wings, you don't lose any gross

weight and the difference in speed is not very much.



Mike Logan

Series 5 



--

_________________
Mike Logan
Fredericksburg, VA

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

 	  Quote: 	
		  Have a Classic Kitfox IV 1050lb 100% completed. 

Thinking of clipping the wing and installing a Speedster wing tip. 

Does anyone have a diagram of the Speedster wing measurements? 

Also in the process of installing a radiator scoop for the Rotax 912ul. 

Kitfox has the tips for $170 each, plus $350 for hardware.

	




To clarify--  are Classic IV is a 1200 gross model.

I would think that you have a 1050 Kitfox IV  with droop tips.  I have pondered the though of the newer hoerner style tips but I have yet to see and conclusive proof that I Will gain or lose anything so I still have my droop tips performance wise. 



If you cut your wings shorter you will lose STOL performance and I don't think the speed gain will be much.   You might lose gross weight as well. 



Question is what do you really want out  of your Kitfox?

_________________
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yodaone

Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Pompano Beach,FL

Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

The airplane has been completed for over ten years and really haven't done any thing to it.

I'm in the process of installing wing cuffs, gas cap fairings from Williams Aviation and a radiator scoop from Kitfox. 

Wing tips and wheel pants might be next.

Also just changed bungee cords from HighWing LLC, good quality product.



I have the old Matco WHLB5 brakes which never worked very well on an 8 inch wheel that was made by kitfox. Brakes where leaking and Matco suggested changing the O-rings (2-222 O-ring), which solved the leak.

They also suggested changing the brake line to 1/8 inch OD brake line for better braking. I will try the new 1/8 inch OD, will report if better braking.



Below is from Matco:



  It is a matter of brake pressure.  The brake is rated at 450 psi.  If you are not getting 450 psi to the caliper, you are not getting the rated torque.  The issue is usually one of pedal geometry.  The early KitFox had two issues.  The geometry was low (we recommend at least 2.5 to 1 mechanical advantage).  The second is having the master cylinder connect above the pivot point of the toe brake.  The result of this is that the mechanical advantage gets worse as the cylinder is stroked.  This type of geometry can be made to work as long as the mechanical advantage starts out higher so that it is still at 2.5 to 1 when the cylinder is in the loaded position.  The early Kitfox, Avid, and Lancairâ€™s all had this type of geometry.



 



There is a SKIDS Technical Comic on our website that talks about pedal geometry and has links to more detail including a discussion of mechanical advantage with drawings.  The comic is at http://www.carttonic.com/files/file_download.php?fi_id=39363 



 



The best way to know for sure is to measure the pressure at the brake with a pressure gauge.  You will likely find that you are not getting more than 300 psi or so.  It is the equivalent of taking off at 60 percent throttle on the engine.  The brake will give more torque above 450 psi but it is less linear above that value.  The nylon lines should be fine as long as they have a 450 psi working pressure and at least a 1500 psi burst.  Since you also have an issue with the amount of volume used (your pedal geometry worsens with stroke and you will have less stroke with less volume) you may find that smaller diameter lines are helpful.  We have recently begun using 1/8 inch OD line for our hand master cylinders as they are low volume systems.  It is beneficial for that case.  We have also found it easier to bleed a 1/8 line free of air.

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_________________
1991 Kitfox IV 1050LB
Rotax 912UL

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: Re: Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

My kitfox 4 1200 was originally long wing.  I shortened it by one bay on each side, the tips were already the right ones.  



What I found after doing this, I would never have a long wing again.  The cross wind effect was much better, use to get thrown around all over the place with long wing.  The ground effect was better, don't ask me why.  The turn rate, really cool.  I would do it again in a heart beat.

7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

Anyone on the list ever clip a bay off of a Model 5?? Just wondering, it

would make my wing repairs much simpler.



Lloyd



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yodaone

Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Pompano Beach,FL

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

Added new wing tips and found no speed or performance increase.



Drop





New

_________________
1991 Kitfox IV 1050LB
Rotax 912UL

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:50 am Post subject: Re: Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

Great report and nice job!.



So wing tips are all aesthetic it seems. 



What about soft field and short field takes offs?

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:44 am Post subject: Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

Yodaone,

  Nice pictures. It helps to see other aircraft and how people do mods. I like your radiator scoop. I have one and was going to install it but it fit horribly. I had to cut and fit, cut and fit. I finally put it back in the box to do another day. I just got my airplane flying again after a month long annual. I ended up replacing all the hoses, gas lines, fuel gauge lines, wrapping the exhausts, new Kuntzleman Magnum strobes(sp),shim the gearbox/replace Bellville(sp) washers,etc.

  But, I am now flying again and feel better about getting rid of all that old stuff.

  There is a guy down the street who is selling a Kitfox 4 project for $10000 (no engine/instruments) it has the mount for the 912. Anyway he has two sets of wingtips. I had thought about getting rid of my droop tips and buying the speedster type from him and putting those on but after your report, I think I will keep what I have.

  I guess my next projects on the plane will be replacing the brake lines with 1/8 inch line. ( I have the line and fittings) My old Matco brakes don't work very well so I will give that a shot and then maybe on to the radiator cowl again.

                                  Dick Maddux

                                  Fox 4-1200

                                  912UL

                                  Milton,Fl

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

Dick,



My Matco brakes work very well. 



Make sure  that they slide easily or you lose a good portion of your braking ability.  My brakes do not slip but the tires do.  I can lock them up on grass and skid them along.

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:46 pm Post subject: Clipping wing and putting on a Speedster wing tip

 

  

 Guy, Steve Wittman did exactly that with the Wittman Tailwind wing when he was testing different wing tip designs.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com (bnn(at)nethere.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com (bnn(at)nethere.com)>  



At 05:39 AM 3/7/2010, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  There is a guy down the street who is selling a Kitfox 4 project for $10000 (no engine/instruments) it has the mount for the 912. Anyway he has two sets of wingtips. I had thought about getting rid of my droop tips and buying the speedster type from him and putting those on but after your report, I think I will keep what I have.

 	




Hey, I've got an idea! Why not put one type of wing tip on one wing and the other on the other wing. Then whichever wing rolls up obviously has the better performing wing tip. Pretty scientific, eh? Wat'dya think? 

 



Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs:

 fox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 =   --> h

 a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford,IL

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