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frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
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 Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
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There is still pricing info for 601 HD and HDS kits and plans at http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-price.html
They may be out of production but the website certainly doesn't reflect that
| Quote: | Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 16:29:04 -0700
From: bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead?
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Are you planning to scratch build? This is an important question for you because the HD is no longer being produced as a kit.
Like you, I had a hard time deciding between the HD or the XL, but in my case it wasn't because of the accidents (the accident started to happen after I made the decision and started building) there where things in the HD that I liked. I went with the XL anyway and so far I haven't regret my decision.
The reason why I decided in favor of the XL is this: In time there will be more XL flying than HDs. That time is already here. Today, the XL is more common than the HD or the HDS, but not more common than the HD and HDS combined, but give it a little bit more time. One reason why the XL is more common is because you can buy a certified ready to fly XL, but if you want an HD/HDS your only option is scratch building. You can buy a kit or a quick build.
Number of planes flying is very important to me, specially if there is a certified version of the plane. I believe that a design with lots of copies flying plus a certified version is more likely, in the long run, to be a more debugged plane.
I don't know for sure what is causing these accidents (I have my suspicions), but I'm quite confident that whatever it is, it will be found and resolved. However, you need to consider that I'm scratch building and I'm still years away from having a flying plane, I have to wait no matter what.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Jbellinger <blondietheblond(at)gmail.com> wrote: | Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jbellinger"
Howdy! I'm new to this list.
I just started on a rudder (I've been planning to build a zodiac for about a decade, but I finally have | Quote: |
arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends. Start sharing. [quote][b]
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William Dominguez
Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
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It seems that it may be back in production. I remember some time in the past when only pricing for the plans where available for the HD/HDS. $12,620.00 is bargain.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Frank Roskind <frankroskind(at)hotmail.com> wrote:[quote] .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } There is still pricing info for 601 HD and HDS kits and plans at http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-price.html
They may be out of production but the website certainly doesn't reflect that
| Quote: | Date: Sun, 11 May 2008 16:29:04 -0700
From: bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead?
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Are you planning to scratch build? This is an important question for you because the HD is no longer being produced as a kit.
Like you, I had a hard time deciding between the HD or the XL, but in my case it wasn't because of the accidents (the accident started to happen after I made the decision and started building) there where things in the HD that I liked. I went with the XL anyway and so far I haven't regret my decision.
The reason why I decided in favor of the XL is this: In time there will be more XL flying than HDs. That time is already here. Today, the XL is more common than the HD or the HDS, but not more common than the HD and HDS combined, but give it a little bit more time. One reason why the XL is more common is because you can buy a certified ready to fly XL, but if you want an HD/HDS your only option is scratch building. You can buy a kit or a quick build.
Number of planes flying is very important to me, specially if there is a certified version of the plane. I believe that a design with lots of copies flying plus a certified version is more likely, in the long run, to be a more debugged plane.
I don't know for sure what is causing these accidents (I have my suspicions), but I'm quite confident that whatever it is, it will be found and resolved. However, you need to consider that I'm scratch building and I'm still years away from having a flying plane, I have to wait no matter what.
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom
Jbellinger <blondietheblond(at)gmail.com> wrote: | Quote: | --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Jbellinger"
Howdy! I'm new to this list.
I just started on a rudder (I've been planning to build a zodiac for about a decade, but I finally have | Quote: | | arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listp://forums.matronics.comblank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
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Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends. Start sharing. [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom |
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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
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The 601HD and HDS are not going back into production, as they have never gone out of offering. In Canada the 601HD has always been able to fit into our ultralight category and as such I have been able to sell them. Now I will admit that wait time for a HD kit does take longer as it is a special order but it has never been retired.
I would also like to add a few things, There has been an abundance of miss information on this list as a handful of members have offered speculation on accidents. We have heard time and time again of this thought and that thought,. Speculation on one issue then bounding to another and a few jumping on the bandwagon, no one is more concerned about safety then the manufacturer and the designer. Stacks upon stacks of information has been submitted to the FAA for investigation purposes, including a 3rd party testing of the XL design. Once this information is submitted to the Government then it is not for release to the public until an investigation is closed. So please don’t ever think that the designer or company is not going to extraordinary steps to help in the investigation of any incident, as always they have gone far beyond what is requested or necessary.
I have been quiet on the speculations I have read here since Sun-N-Fun, typically I do not offer any opinion until called upon as it is not my position to monitor a list or it’s members. Healthy discussion is always good to read. Healthy is also defined as something that can be learned from concrete information not outlandish speculation.
Chris has announced a limit on the elevator authority and this is a recommendation that is likely very worth doing on your plane. The older 601 HD series had a cruise speed of about 85-90mph and it was almost impossible to get into trouble with any maneuvers on that plane, even a dive would be hard pressed to approach the Vne of a 601HD with a Rotax 912. This is not the case with the 601XL, the XL is a far faster and more responsive plane and is fully capable of exceeding it’s limits, we have even read about a person reveling in the fact that his XL was able to make 200mph in a dive. We have seen on Youtube a 601XL doing aerobatics, last time I have mentioned that the 601XL is not rated for Aerobatics in Canada a builder spoke up that he is planning on doing full aerobatics in his plane. Many people have customized there build to make there plane personal and to fit there idea of strength, there are 601’s out there with a 980lb empty and the owners still load 500 lbs of people in them then add fuel, the aileron balance cables in a few planes have been limp. I have also seen some that have been so far out of W&B that I wonder how they fly safely at all. Nevertheless, with customization/need for aerobatics/ abilities of design, in the case of an accident it is only ever a Zenith plane.
What does this all add up to, that’s simple the company and it’s designer are doing everything in there power to ensure that we are building and flying the safest possible product. With all the paperwork in the hands of the NTSB the AMD facility is still producing and selling a SLSA as well as an IFR version of the 601XL. Is there anyone on this list that could possibly believe that the government would hesitate to stop a production model of aircraft if it had evidence of a possibility history or common link of failure?
I’ve had a 601HD, flown an HDS and I am close to my final of the XL as well as have spent many hours in several XL’s and HD’s. All this speculation is doing a few things, it has split this list of many great and knowledgeable builders that were a vast pool of knowledge, I consider this alone to be shameful. It has terrorized people who were planning on building a 601 into not even considering a great plane and has put fear into builders into selling there projects. This fear is from a systemic few and is truly unwarranted to this degree, talk about accidents is warranted and desired as we learn from incidents. We have learned a few things in the last couple of years, don’t forget to install your rear spar bolts, don’t forget to fuel your plane, don’t forget to build according to the designers specifications and the AC43 13b standards, don’t forget to follow the designers updates, stay out of thunderstorms.
Remember many things can be a catalyst for an accident in an aircraft and often It is a series of small events that can add up to a large one. The older series of 601’s if you got into a serious situation not much happened until you found the ground. The older versions were incapable of the abilities of the XL, if you have a serious incident in one form or the other with the ability of a cruise of 130 mph then the final result could be well beyond the design parameters. Seldom does anyone on the ground ever understand or see the cause of an accident they see the plane as it reaches past it’s design loads. Speculation about a plane that has had an accident and has evidently reached beyond it design limits will only devalue it.
Speed capabilities is and always will be a factor in an aircraft accident, it is no wonder why the 701 has such a terrific record.
My 601XL will be ready soon, I have added the modification from the designer limiting the travel of the elevator. I am also looking forward to my 15yr old daughter learning in the XL to get her license. Do I have a blind trust? Not even in my wife, which is my greatest friend in this life. However, I know the design investigation and the scrutiny in the 601XL design done by the designer and many others and I am confident that as long as the plane is built to the designers intentions and flown within it’s parameters it will be a fun and safe plane to own.
Mark Townsend Alma, Ontario
Zodiac 601XL C-GOXL, CH701
www.ch601.org / www.ch701.com/ www.Osprey2.com
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sonar1@cox.net
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 55
Location: Santa Barbara, Ca
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instea |
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Well said Mark. About time someone put things in perspective.
Do not archive
Fred Sanford, Ca. N9601 will be flying in three weeks!
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amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
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Not true. please refer to the Zenith specs. HD is the original Light sprt, originally an upgraded 600. HDS is not LSA.
Juan
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Starting a zodiac - Downsides of going with a HD instead? |
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Hi Dan,
You'll read both sides of the matter here, but the HD certainly does and
the HDS can meet those standards depending on
if it was made to qualify within the stall speeds. Some HDSs won't, but
some will. I have had no problem meeting
that LSA stall speed and it's documented in my operations manual.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Dan Forney wrote:
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Does the HD or HDS meet the “light sport” requirements for stall
speeds, and other specification requirements?
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