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peterlthomson(at)gmail.co
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 Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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At the moment Rotax support the use of E5 blends (5% ethanol), but in Thailand where I live it is becoming harder to find other than E10 (10% ethanol, blended to 95RON).
Bing have a carburetor float and bowl kit to resist ethanol and other additives, but from what I can determine, use of E10 without modifications is not uncommon and seems to work OK.
Does anyone have some hands on experience with this ?
thanks
Peter Thomson in Thailand
CH701 912ULS
[quote][b]
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gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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Peter--
We have the same problem . Only 10% is available. I've been flying with for the past 150 hours with no problems.
George May
601XL 912s
| Quote: | Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 14:35:23 +0700
From: peterlthomson(at)gmail.com
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
At the moment Rotax support the use of E5 blends (5% ethanol), but in Thailand where I live it is becoming harder to find other than E10 (10% ethanol, blended to 95RON).
Bing have a carburetor float and bowl kit to resist ethanol and other additives, but from what I can determine, use of E10 without modifications is not uncommon and seems to work OK.
Does anyone have some hands on experience with this ?
thanks
Peter Thomson in Thailand
CH701 912ULS
| Quote: |
ist" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends. Start sharing. [quote][b]
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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Your Rotax will run just fine on 10% ethanol. I know Rotax says 5% in writing, but many parts of the world that is not possible and they run up to 17% with out any issues. Your Rotax 912ULS should not have any issues if you can not find ethanol free fuel. Ethanol free fuel would be the better choice of the two, but sometimes that is not possible. People have been running ethanol in their Rotax 912 uls engines for years. Some people are a little more conservative than others.
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_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056 |
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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Working is different that remaining to be covered by the valued Rotax factory warrantee. Oregonians are going to learn the hard way this summer as our fuel is no longer compliant and is going the way of politically correct - E10 to support U.S. Corn squeezing.
Good luck with continued safe operation.
John Cox - Oregon, USA
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Thomson
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 12:35 AM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
At the moment Rotax support the use of E5 blends (5% ethanol), but in Thailand where I live it is becoming harder to find other than E10 (10% ethanol, blended to 95RON).
Bing have a carburetor float and bowl kit to resist ethanol and other additives, but from what I can determine, use of E10 without modifications is not uncommon and seems to work OK.
Does anyone have some hands on experience with this ?
thanks
Peter Thomson in Thailand
CH701 912ULS [quote] [/b][/b][/b][/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List[/b]http://forums.matronics.com[/b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution [b]
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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For me personally,
I would run 10% ethanol before 100LL. If you have ever seen a gear box and engine run on 100LL torn down then you would pick 91 oct. with the ethanol every time. 100LL is far harder on the 912. The lead gets every where and you have to do certain tear downs along the way to clean out the lead deposits.
Each can decide.
My personal preference.
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_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056 |
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jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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You don't have to tear down the gear box to see the lead deposits, you can see it caked up on the spark plugs and sludging up in the bottom of the oil sump! The only problem with ethanol is you get slightly less power. I suppose it could be hard on your fuel lines, but I have seen no evidence of this.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
For me personally,
I would run 10% ethanol before 100LL. If you have ever seen a gear box and engine run on 100LL torn down then you would pick 91 oct. with the ethanol every time. 100LL is far harder on the 912. The lead gets every where and you have to do certain tear downs along the way to clean out the lead deposits.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181912#181912
|
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm [quote][b]
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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Jack:
Why is it then that COPA does NOT recommend the use of ethanol contaminated fuels. Why is it the FAA will not certify ethanol contaminated fuels? I agree most of our engines should not be using 100LL ( should be Loaded with Lead) My opinion on the use of ethanol as a fuel source is well known as is my opinion on using it to fly. Best thing is to hoot holler and yell bloody murder until the brain dead politicians allow access to clean fuel.
Who runs our countries any way??? Use the ballot box!
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kuehn
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:45 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
You don't have to tear down the gear box to see the lead deposits, you can see it caked up on the spark plugs and sludging up in the bottom of the oil sump! The only problem with ethanol is you get slightly less power. I suppose it could be hard on your fuel lines, but I have seen no evidence of this.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
For me personally,
I would run 10% ethanol before 100LL. If you have ever seen a gear box and engine run on 100LL torn down then you would pick 91 oct. with the ethanol every time. 100LL is far harder on the 912. The lead gets every where and you have to do certain tear downs along the way to clean out the lead deposits.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181912#181912
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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The leaded gas is permitted up to the 50% rule. The maintenance is straight forward to correct the result.
The ethanol gasoline at 10% is not permitted and when it absorbs moisture and you fly at altitude the result does not allow for a mechanic to help you correct the response or for warrantee adjustment.
YMMV.
John Cox
Portland, OR and Rotax Trained
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 1:50 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Jack:
Why is it then that COPA does NOT recommend the use of ethanol contaminated fuels. Why is it the FAA will not certify ethanol contaminated fuels? I agree most of our engines should not be using 100LL ( should be Loaded with Lead) My opinion on the use of ethanol as a fuel source is well known as is my opinion on using it to fly. Best thing is to hoot holler and yell bloody murder until the brain dead politicians allow access to clean fuel.
Who runs our countries any way??? Use the ballot box!
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kuehn
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:45 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
You don't have to tear down the gear box to see the lead deposits, you can see it caked up on the spark plugs and sludging up in the bottom of the oil sump! The only problem with ethanol is you get slightly less power. I suppose it could be hard on your fuel lines, but I have seen no evidence of this.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
For me personally,
I would run 10% ethanol before 100LL. If you have ever seen a gear box and engine run on 100LL torn down then you would pick 91 oct. with the ethanol every time. 100LL is far harder on the 912. The lead gets every where and you have to do certain tear downs along the way to clean out the lead deposits.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181912#181912
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm [quote] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution [b]
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jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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Noel,
I understand your point of view, however another take on it might be that we are very fortunate indeed to have any fuel at all, at any price. Billions of people in the world have their hands full just surviving. Flying is indeed a luxury.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Jack:
Why is it then that COPA does NOT recommend the use of ethanol contaminated fuels. Why is it the FAA will not certify ethanol contaminated fuels? I agree most of our engines should not be using 100LL ( should be Loaded with Lead) My opinion on the use of ethanol as a fuel source is well known as is my opinion on using it to fly. Best thing is to hoot holler and yell bloody murder until the brain dead politicians allow access to clean fuel.
Who runs our countries any way??? Use the ballot box!
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jack Kuehn
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:45 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
You don't have to tear down the gear box to see the lead deposits, you can see it caked up on the spark plugs and sludging up in the bottom of the oil sump! The only problem with ethanol is you get slightly less power. I suppose it could be hard on your fuel lines, but I have seen no evidence of this.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
For me personally,
I would run 10% ethanol before 100LL. If you have ever seen a gear box and engine run on 100LL torn down then you would pick 91 oct. with the ethanol every time. 100LL is far harder on the 912. The lead gets every where and you have to do certain tear downs along the way to clean out the lead deposits.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181912#181912
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm
012 34567 89
0
|
--
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Ln
Lolo, MT USA 59847
(406)273-6801
(406)546-1086 cell
jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm [quote][b]
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rampil
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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John,
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with E10 Mogas.
You just have to understand the differences.
E10 has a somewhat lower energy density, about 5%
E10 may have a somewhat higher likelihood to vaporize and flow lock
tubing over 10k density altitude.
Oh yes, and E10 will melt old lycoming and continental engines and
old cessnas and pipers that use cork and natural rubber in their
fuel systems. Bad for them, irrelevant to Rotax engines which
are not composed of E10 sensitive materials.
The FAA will not "approve" EtOH for general use when there are so many
airframes and engines that are old enough to use rubber, cork, and a
few other EtOH sensitive components
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Ira N224XS |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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That would be funny... if it wasn’t so serious.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Cox
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:04 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
The leaded gas is permitted up to the 50% rule. The maintenance is straight forward to correct the result.
The ethanol gasoline at 10% is not permitted and when it absorbs moisture and you fly at altitude the result does not allow for a mechanic to help you correct the response or for warrantee adjustment.
YMMV.
John Cox
Portland, OR and Rotax Trained
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 1:50 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Jack:
Why is it then that COPA does NOT recommend the use of ethanol contaminated fuels. Why is it the FAA will not certify ethanol contaminated fuels? I agree most of our engines should not be using 100LL ( should be Loaded with Lead) My opinion on the use of ethanol as a fuel source is well known as is my opinion on using it to fly. Best thing is to hoot holler and yell bloody murder until the brain dead politicians allow access to clean fuel.
Who runs our countries any way??? Use the ballot box!
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kuehn
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:45 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
You don't have to tear down the gear box to see the lead deposits, you can see it caked up on the spark plugs and sludging up in the bottom of the oil sump! The only problem with ethanol is you get slightly less power. I suppose it could be hard on your fuel lines, but I have seen no evidence of this.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
For me personally,
I would run 10% ethanol before 100LL. If you have ever seen a gear box and engine run on 100LL torn down then you would pick 91 oct. with the ethanol every time. 100LL is far harder on the 912. The lead gets every where and you have to do certain tear downs along the way to clean out the lead deposits.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181912#181912
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List |
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[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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I’m first to agree that flying is indeed a luxury. But it should be done with the greatest safety and economic responsibility. Ethanol fuel production in that past two months has increased the price at the pumps and to add insult to injury the cost of food is sky rocketing at a slightly lower rate. With the increase problems of using ethanol in aviation and the stone cold fact ethanol production is anything but economically responsible it’s use should be prohibited not encouraged.
There are times I actually feel a bit guilty in the fact where I live on the island of Newfoundland the chances of getting contaminated fuel are slim. In fact there is only one refiner/distributor of gasoline that ships gas to Newfoundland and they aren’t too happy with what the stuff does to their tankers. We don’t ( really can’t) grow corn commercially here so our local refinery doesn’t produce any E blend
Sometimes it’s good to be surrounded by water....
Time will show how wrong the idiots in both our governments really are. I just hope no one will end up paying the ultimate price.
There are places like Arizona where it is questionable as to how much moisture ethanol will absorb from the air. In such places the possibility of problems are greatly reduced. However the guy who lives in Washington state or British Columbia is a lot more prone to having a phase separation just because their environment is so much damper and they are subject to some pretty large temperature swings especially while flying. I recommend everyone read their legislators the riot act and use your best weapon... the ballot box. It may be an uphill battle. No doubt it will be. Consider the fact it is the right thing to do.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kuehn
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:04 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Noel,
I understand your point of view, however another take on it might be that we are very fortunate indeed to have any fuel at all, at any price. Billions of people in the world have their hands full just surviving. Flying is indeed a luxury.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
Jack:
Why is it then that COPA does NOT recommend the use of ethanol contaminated fuels. Why is it the FAA will not certify ethanol contaminated fuels? I agree most of our engines should not be using 100LL ( should be Loaded with Lead) My opinion on the use of ethanol as a fuel source is well known as is my opinion on using it to fly. Best thing is to hoot holler and yell bloody murder until the brain dead politicians allow access to clean fuel.
Who runs our countries any way??? Use the ballot box!
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jack Kuehn
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:45 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
You don't have to tear down the gear box to see the lead deposits, you can see it caked up on the spark plugs and sludging up in the bottom of the oil sump! The only problem with ethanol is you get slightly less power. I suppose it could be hard on your fuel lines, but I have seen no evidence of this.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
For me personally,
I would run 10% ethanol before 100LL. If you have ever seen a gear box and engine run on 100LL torn down then you would pick 91 oct. with the ethanol every time. 100LL is far harder on the 912. The lead gets every where and you have to do certain tear downs along the way to clean out the lead deposits.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181912#181912
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com |
--
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Ln
Lolo, MT USA 59847
(406)273-6801
(406)546-1086 cell
jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)
(406)273-2563 fax
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Kitfox III-A
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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Isn't it a good idea to be able to go over 10,000 ft while flying in some of
the west coast mountains? Check it out... The FAA does not want anyone to
fly on ethanol, new or old. Why?? Because it is dangerous. Those guys are
not ignorant politicians out to purchase a vote or two, but well educated
people in the aviation field. We can all do well to listen to them.
You may fly for years on ethanol laced gas with no problems.... There have
been thousands of people who drive home from the bar too soused to stand up.
Some of them have been doing it for years with no problems but that doesn't
make it any less dangerous. It only means there are a few drunks driving
around with a piece of the Blarney Stone secured in a private place...
Someday the stone and all that's behind it will hit the fan.
I stand by my convictions. Ethanol has no place in aviation, short of
cleaning a few parts and M.E.K. is better for that.
There are a few things I find hard to believe. One is that people will
still try to foist off an obviously poor idea (ethanol fuel) on a public
that are probably smarter than they are. I also find it hard to believe
there are so many people who roll over and say, "Well there's nothing we can
do about it"
As sure as god made little green apples it isn't the American way, Canadian
way, the Australian way or the British way!
Those of you who want to fly on clean safe gasoline get upset, Get loud, get
angry! Let your legislators know you are angry. Ask your politicians who
are facing election or re-election what their stand is and then let them
know in no uncertain terms what your stance is. Kick up a big fuss. Then
put the hammer down in the ballot box. The will only ignore you for one
election and then only if they ulterior motives.
Win, lose or draw at least you will feel good in knowing you have done
something right.
Noel
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jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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Noel,
Yes I really agree. Email is so limiting in this kind of discussion! Wish we could sit down and chew on this one for a while. I would learn for sure. I am lucky enough to live in a relatively dry climate here in western Montana, so I guess I am oblivious to phase separation though I always visually check my fuel. Politics of ETOH are a mess, and play a role in lots of problems.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm first to agree that flying is indeed a luxury. But it should be done with the greatest safety and economic responsibility. Ethanol fuel production in that past two months has increased the price at the pumps and to add insult to injury the cost of food is sky rocketing at a slightly lower rate. With the increase problems of using ethanol in aviation and the stone cold fact ethanol production is anything but economically responsible it's use should be prohibited not encouraged.
There are times I actually feel a bit guilty in the fact where I live on the island of Newfoundland the chances of getting contaminated fuel are slim. In fact there is only one refiner/distributor of gasoline that ships gas to Newfoundland and they aren't too happy with what the stuff does to their tankers. We don't ( really can't) grow corn commercially here so our local refinery doesn't produce any E blend
Sometimes it's good to be surrounded by water....
Time will show how wrong the idiots in both our governments really are. I just hope no one will end up paying the ultimate price.
There are places like Arizona where it is questionable as to how much moisture ethanol will absorb from the air. In such places the possibility of problems are greatly reduced. However the guy who lives in Washington state or British Columbia is a lot more prone to having a phase separation just because their environment is so much damper and they are subject to some pretty large temperature swings especially while flying. I recommend everyone read their legislators the riot act and use your best weapon... the ballot box. It may be an uphill battle. No doubt it will be. Consider the fact it is the right thing to do.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jack Kuehn
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:04 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Noel,
I understand your point of view, however another take on it might be that we are very fortunate indeed to have any fuel at all, at any price. Billions of people in the world have their hands full just surviving. Flying is indeed a luxury.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
Jack:
Why is it then that COPA does NOT recommend the use of ethanol contaminated fuels. Why is it the FAA will not certify ethanol contaminated fuels? I agree most of our engines should not be using 100LL ( should be Loaded with Lead) My opinion on the use of ethanol as a fuel source is well known as is my opinion on using it to fly. Best thing is to hoot holler and yell bloody murder until the brain dead politicians allow access to clean fuel.
Who runs our countries any way??? Use the ballot box!
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jack Kuehn
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:45 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
You don't have to tear down the gear box to see the lead deposits, you can see it caked up on the spark plugs and sludging up in the bottom of the oil sump! The only problem with ethanol is you get slightly less power. I suppose it could be hard on your fuel lines, but I have seen no evidence of this.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
For me personally,
I would run 10% ethanol before 100LL. If you have ever seen a gear box and engine run on 100LL torn down then you would pick 91 oct. with the ethanol every time. 100LL is far harder on the 912. The lead gets every where and you have to do certain tear downs along the way to clean out the lead deposits.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181912#181912
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm
--
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Ln
Lolo, MT USA 59847
(406)273-6801
(406)546-1086 cell
jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm
01234 567 8901 23456 78
9
|
--
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Ln
Lolo, MT USA 59847
(406)273-6801
(406)546-1086 cell
jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm [quote][b]
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
|
| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:39 am Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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|
One of the problems is it is perceived that people like myself who live in non farming locales have something against farmers making a good living. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have lived, for a short period, in Manitoba and have a keen sense of respect for farmers. They work hard and should be well rewarded for their labours. Any one who thinks a farmer is only a guy who rides a tractor should consider the decisions he has to make before he ever starts a tractor. There is budgeting for seed, fuel, lime if needed, fertilizer, irrigation, and transportation. If that wasn’t enough they then have to deal with the tax departments. They have to keep impeccable books and can be called to explain the smallest item at any time. To all that he also has to have a green thumb and or know his livestock. Anyone who doesn’t have great respect for farmers really should spend a little time learning where out breakfast, dinner and supper comes from. All that aside there is just too much government meddling in farming. There is something wrong with any system that pays farmers not to plant crops or slaughter thousands of livestock.
The same thing is true of fishermen. They add danger to the mix of requirements farmers have and our governments do little if anything to make their way of life better. They allow offshore fishing armadas to come rape and pillage the nose and tail of the Grand Banks. That same fishing ground used to be the biggest store of seafood in the entire world... today it is the next thing to a submarine desert. When the do catch a vessel devastating our resources they eventually let it go. I’d have the darn thing converted into rails or Fords. And their skippers would spend five years or so making big ones into little ones. If their homelands want them back I’d deport them at the first opportunity...not enough need for little ones J.
My beef is in the diversion of food producing land into a fuel that is so financially irresponsible. Our farm lands and the people who work them are just about the most valuable thing there is and we are throwing it all away for a fuel source that we literally cannot sustain.
We should be working on new ways to store wind, and solar energy... not to mention designing new ways to refine and use fossil fuels so there will be much less polluting gasses given off.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kuehn
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:50 AM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Noel,
Yes I really agree. Email is so limiting in this kind of discussion! Wish we could sit down and chew on this one for a while. I would learn for sure. I am lucky enough to live in a relatively dry climate here in western Montana, so I guess I am oblivious to phase separation though I always visually check my fuel. Politics of ETOH are a mess, and play a role in lots of problems.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
I'm first to agree that flying is indeed a luxury. But it should be done with the greatest safety and economic responsibility. Ethanol fuel production in that past two months has increased the price at the pumps and to add insult to injury the cost of food is sky rocketing at a slightly lower rate. With the increase problems of using ethanol in aviation and the stone cold fact ethanol production is anything but economically responsible it's use should be prohibited not encouraged.
There are times I actually feel a bit guilty in the fact where I live on the island of Newfoundland the chances of getting contaminated fuel are slim. In fact there is only one refiner/distributor of gasoline that ships gas to Newfoundland and they aren't too happy with what the stuff does to their tankers. We don't ( really can't) grow corn commercially here so our local refinery doesn't produce any E blend
Sometimes it's good to be surrounded by water....
Time will show how wrong the idiots in both our governments really are. I just hope no one will end up paying the ultimate price.
There are places like Arizona where it is questionable as to how much moisture ethanol will absorb from the air. In such places the possibility of problems are greatly reduced. However the guy who lives in Washington state or British Columbia is a lot more prone to having a phase separation just because their environment is so much damper and they are subject to some pretty large temperature swings especially while flying. I recommend everyone read their legislators the riot act and use your best weapon... the ballot box. It may be an uphill battle. No doubt it will be. Consider the fact it is the right thing to do.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jack Kuehn
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:04 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
Noel,
I understand your point of view, however another take on it might be that we are very fortunate indeed to have any fuel at all, at any price. Billions of people in the world have their hands full just surviving. Flying is indeed a luxury.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
Jack:
Why is it then that COPA does NOT recommend the use of ethanol contaminated fuels. Why is it the FAA will not certify ethanol contaminated fuels? I agree most of our engines should not be using 100LL ( should be Loaded with Lead) My opinion on the use of ethanol as a fuel source is well known as is my opinion on using it to fly. Best thing is to hoot holler and yell bloody murder until the brain dead politicians allow access to clean fuel.
Who runs our countries any way??? Use the ballot box!
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jack Kuehn
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:45 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline
You don't have to tear down the gear box to see the lead deposits, you can see it caked up on the spark plugs and sludging up in the bottom of the oil sump! The only problem with ethanol is you get slightly less power. I suppose it could be hard on your fuel lines, but I have seen no evidence of this.
Jack
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>
For me personally,
I would run 10% ethanol before 100LL. If you have ever seen a gear box and engine run on 100LL torn down then you would pick 91 oct. with the ethanol every time. 100LL is far harder on the 912. The lead gets every where and you have to do certain tear downs along the way to clean out the lead deposits.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181912#181912
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com |
--
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Ln
Lolo, MT USA 59847
(406)273-6801
(406)546-1086 cell
jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)
(406)273-2563 fax
http://mountaintime.myrf.net/imglib/index.htm
01234
5678
--
Jack Kuehn
5565 Brady Ln
Lolo, MT USA 59847
(406)273-6801
(406)546-1086 cell
jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)
(406)273-2563 fax
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Rich L
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:54 am Post subject: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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When TCP becomes available again, will it take care of the excessive Lead problems in Rotax engines? It has been used for years in aircraft engines for that purpose. I understand as soon as the vendor overcomes some shipping and packaging problems it will be back on the market.
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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Don't compare the Rotax 912 with other GA aircraft engines and with ethanol. They are worlds apart.
The water retention issue could be a factor, but not much of one. When at the higher altitudes (above 8'K, reference Rotax classes) there is a very slight possibility for a fuel alcohol/water separation or a vapor lock. It is a slight chance and there would have to be an awful lot of water to fall out of that solution to stop the Rotax. This is due to different partial pressures of the overall fuel contents. Your fuel would have to be very saturated for that big a slug of water to come out all at once to stop the engine. Your Rotax can pass through small amounts at a time. If any of you are from the old backyard mechanics days they used to spray water into auto carbs while they were running to help clean the system out. If you have that much water in your fuel then your aren't running fresh fuel through your system often enough (i.e. older fuel), you aren't checking the low point drains or the gasolator and some how you have introduced water into the fuel system (i.e. leaving it in the rain). I know water can get in the fuel because many live in humid areas, but this is where fresh fuel, running the engine more often and checking the water content in the fuel during a preflight is important and was established.
When using TCP just double check your compatibility with the fuel tank materials.
Ethanol is a personal choice, but it can be used safely with education. It is not a demon as some believe. Just use it within its operating parameters.
Might as well get used to it more is coming our way.
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rampil
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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Noel,
You are certainly entitled to your convictions.
Where exactly does the FAA say they do not want Rotax engines
flying above 10000 feet?
As for the fabled engine warranty, Rotax and every other engine
manufacturer provides a warranty that is pretty close to worthless.
They will assure that the engine runs when you get it (not when you
finish your plane) and after that, practically speaking, forget it.
John, if you value your warranty so much, you'd better not start your
engine 
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Ollie Washburn
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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My eng was one of the ones that came under the bad metal gears in the
gearbox. Mine were bad and they replaced the gearbox and installed new
short block. I had to pay for oil change and new filter . Eng had 251
hrs. on it.
Ollie Central FL
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 2:00 PM, rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Noel,
You are certainly entitled to your convictions.
Where exactly does the FAA say they do not want Rotax engines
flying above 10000 feet?
As for the fabled engine warranty, Rotax and every other engine
manufacturer provides a warranty that is pretty close to worthless.
They will assure that the engine runs when you get it (not when you
finish your plane) and after that, practically speaking, forget it.
John, if you value your warranty so much, you'd better not start your
engine
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182221#182221
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: Experience with ethanol blended gasoline |
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For the exact reasons and the reduced safety of E10 at higher
temperatures and altitude, E10 is not intrinsically equivalent. We
differ in our conclusion.
John
--
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