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using 87-0ctane with ethanol

 
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:13 am    Post subject: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Reply with quote

Hi guys,

I’ve been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I fly a
Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, I’ve only used
87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to once a
month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline. At
preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass jar
more than half way. I’ve never found any sign of water or found less
than clear fuel so it’s drained back into 5-gallon storage tanks. The
oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use and the
Subaru’s performance doesn’t seem to have been affected. I’ve
transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no apparent
problems. I’ve never seen signs of water in the 601’s gascolator, the
quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. I’m only optimistic that
perhaps the fuel I’m using is from stations that have rapid turnover
fuel stocks and a handle on their water separation. I’m going to fly a
lot more this year and have also acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that
can be carried empty in the wing baggage area for ease of retrieving
fuel from the “street”.

That’s been the experience so far.

Do fly safe,

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com


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rsteele(at)rjsit.com
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:54 am    Post subject: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Reply with quote

One factor that is reported as an issue with blended gas, I'll call
it E10, is altitude. Just curious what altitude you've been flying,
and at way temperatures.?

The users and nay-sayers of E10 seem to be miles apart. Something
must be missing in this discussion.

Ron
On May 10, 2008, at 2:10 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote:

Quote:

<larry(at)macsmachine.com>
Hi guys,

I’ve been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I
fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, I’ve only
used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying
to once a month and I have been concerned about water in the
gasoline. At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill
a qt glass jar more than half way. I’ve never found any sign of
water or found less than clear fuel so it’s drained back into 5-
gallon storage tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the
hangar before use and the Subaru’s performance doesn’t seem to have
been affected. I’ve transferred older gas at the end of winter into
my car with no apparent problems. I’ve never seen signs of water in
the 601’s gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the
firewall. I’m only optimistic that perhaps the fuel I’m using is
from stations that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on
their water separation. I’m going to fly a lot more this year and
have also acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried
empty in the wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the
“street”.

That’s been the experience so far.

Do fly safe,

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com


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psm(at)att.net
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 11:37 am    Post subject: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Reply with quote

Hi Larry,

I would be more surprised if you did find water in your gascolator
when using ethanol in your fuel. The ethanol actually dissolves
water and passes it through your engine.

The problems I am aware of with ethanol in the fuel are potential
damage to rubber gaskets and hoses and reduced energy which reduces
aircraft range with this fuel.

Have fun,

Paul
XL fuselage

At 11:10 AM 5/10/2008, you wrote:
Quote:
Hi guys,

I've been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I
fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, I've only
used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to
once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline.
At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass
jar more than half way. I've never found any sign of water or found
less than clear fuel so it's drained back into 5-gallon storage
tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use
and the Subaru's performance doesn't seem to have been affected.
I've transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no
apparent problems. I've never seen signs of water in the 601's
gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. I'm
only optimistic that perhaps the fuel I'm using is from stations
that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water
separation. I'm going to fly a lot more this year and have also
acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the
wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the "street".

That's been the experience so far.

Do fly safe,

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



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bryanmmartin



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:08 pm    Post subject: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Reply with quote

If you are using gasoline with 10% alcohol in it, you won't see any
water in your samples or your gascolator because any water will be
held in suspension in the fuel by the alcohol -- up to a point, that
is. If enough water gets into the fuel, it will all settle out to the
bottom of the tank taking the alcohol with it. At this point, you will
now have gasoline with a significantly reduced octane rating floating
over a mixture of water and alcohol, neither substance will do nice
things for your engine. This is exactly how you test for alcohol in
gasoline, mix about 10% water with the gas and see if the apparent
water level increases as it settles out. So if you ever do find
"water" in your fuel tank while using gasohol, you might as well drain
the entire tank because the remaining gasoline in the tank will
probably have too low an octane rating to be safely used in your
Subaru engine.

When gas stations start using gasohol, they no longer have to drain
the water from their tank sumps because all the water gets pumped into
the gas tanks of their customers cars mixed with the fuel. On the
other hand, if the storage tank has a lot of water in it before that
first load of gasohol gets dumped into it, the next customers will
pump either low octane gas or the water/alcohol mix into their cars,
depending on whether the separation point ends up above or below the
level of the pump intakes.

Cold winter air can't hold a lot of water, so there isn't a lot to get
absorbed by the alcohol in the gasoline. Hot summer air can hold a lot
of water.

Quote:


>
Hi guys,

I’ve been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I
fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, I’ve only
used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to
once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline.
At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass
jar more than half way. I’ve never found any sign of water or found
less than clear fuel so it’s drained back into 5-gallon storage
tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use
and the Subaru’s performance doesn’t seem to have been affected.
I’ve transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no
apparent problems. I’ve never seen signs of water in the 601’s
gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. I’m
only optimistic that perhaps the fuel I’m using is from stations
that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water
separation. I’m going to fly a lot more this year and have also
acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the
wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the “street”.

That’s been the experience so far.

Do fly safe,

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.


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N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.
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larry(at)macsmachine.com
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:58 am    Post subject: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Reply with quote

Hi Ron,
I seldom fly over 4500 ft and the plane is based at 560 ft. I get
headaches past 9000 ft and like the scenery below 4000 much better.
Temps have to be above 20-deg F and I often fly at temps nearer 90-95
deg-F. It is moist here in the Midwest and once or twice early spring
it gets positively wet in the hangar.
It's exactly right to have concern for possible water in the fuel, but
it seems a rare occasion so far. I had water in a Luscombe 8A
30 years ago with 100LL, so it can happen.

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive

Ronald Steele wrote:
Quote:


One factor that is reported as an issue with blended gas, I'll call it
E10, is altitude. Just curious what altitude you've been flying, and
at way temperatures.?

The users and nay-sayers of E10 seem to be miles apart. Something
must be missing in this discussion.

Ron
On May 10, 2008, at 2:10 PM, LarryMcFarland wrote:

>
> <larry(at)macsmachine.com>
> Hi guys,
>
> I’ve been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I
> fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, I’ve only
> used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to
> once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline.
> At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass
> jar more than half way. I’ve never found any sign of water or found
> less than clear fuel so it’s drained back into 5-gallon storage
> tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use
> and the Subaru’s performance doesn’t seem to have been affected. I’ve
> transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no
> apparent problems. I’ve never seen signs of water in the 601’s
> gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. I’m
> only optimistic that perhaps the fuel I’m using is from stations that
> have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water
> separation. I’m going to fly a lot more this year and have also
> acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the
> wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the “street”.
>
> That’s been the experience so far.
>
> Do fly safe,
>
> Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Reply with quote

This was my understanding of this gasohol crap too. A guy at our local chapter actually had some system constructed where he could remove the alcohol and the suspended water from the auto-fuel. He said it worked well (he's a chemical engineeer, but apparently the process was all mechanical in nature) and he used that fuel in his Beech Banaza that had the auto-fuel upgrade done to it. I'll see if I can get some more info on it, it's worth knowing. This is actually a mig problem in boating too. West Marine and Boater's world and what not sell a 10 micron filter which apparently helps with the suspended water somehow. Don't quote me on it as some miracle fix all, but it's a problem the boating world has been dealing with too and some people swear by these new filters. I've already had stumbling bumbling problems with my boat once or twice that only had a standard water/fuel seperator installed inline, and the filter was new, with new fuel, after the event I opened and drained the filter and there was no water in it, so it was in fact water suspended in the fuel. The boat intermittantly ran like a mower that's been sitting in the shed unused for 3 years and you start it up, ran, then stumbled, then ran, then bogged down and nearly stalled, then ran fine, then stumbling etc...

My litttle pickup from '85 has a carb and so does the boat, my other cars are all fuel injected, only the boat and the little carburated truck run like crap occationally, usingly when it's hot and humid. Seems like fuel injection somehow helps, but I don't know how, nor will I be putting a fuel injector on my Corvair, just something I've noticed.

bryanmmartin wrote:
If you are using gasoline with 10% alcohol in it, you won't see any
water in your samples or your gascolator because any water will be
held in suspension in the fuel by the alcohol -- up to a point, that
is. If enough water gets into the fuel, it will all settle out to the
bottom of the tank taking the alcohol with it. At this point, you will
now have gasoline with a significantly reduced octane rating floating
over a mixture of water and alcohol, neither substance will do nice
things for your engine. This is exactly how you test for alcohol in
gasoline, mix about 10% water with the gas and see if the apparent
water level increases as it settles out. So if you ever do find
"water" in your fuel tank while using gasohol, you might as well drain
the entire tank because the remaining gasoline in the tank will
probably have too low an octane rating to be safely used in your
Subaru engine.

When gas stations start using gasohol, they no longer have to drain
the water from their tank sumps because all the water gets pumped into
the gas tanks of their customers cars mixed with the fuel. On the
other hand, if the storage tank has a lot of water in it before that
first load of gasohol gets dumped into it, the next customers will
pump either low octane gas or the water/alcohol mix into their cars,
depending on whether the separation point ends up above or below the
level of the pump intakes.

Cold winter air can't hold a lot of water, so there isn't a lot to get
absorbed by the alcohol in the gasoline. Hot summer air can hold a lot
of water.

Quote:


>
Hi guys,

I?ve been pleased to read these posts on blended ethanol fuel as I
fly a Subaru with Bings. After the first 40 test hours, I?ve only
used 87-octane at 10% ethanol. Poor winter weather limited flying to
once a month and I have been concerned about water in the gasoline.
At preflight, I drain enough fuel from each tank to fill a qt glass
jar more than half way. I?ve never found any sign of water or found
less than clear fuel so it?s drained back into 5-gallon storage
tanks. The oldest gas has been 10-12 weeks in the hangar before use
and the Subaru?s performance doesn?t seem to have been affected.
I?ve transferred older gas at the end of winter into my car with no
apparent problems. I?ve never seen signs of water in the 601?s
gascolator, the quart jar or the clear filter on the firewall. I?m
only optimistic that perhaps the fuel I?m using is from stations
that have rapid turnover fuel stocks and a handle on their water
separation. I?m going to fly a lot more this year and have also
acquired a set of 5-gallon tanks that can be carried empty in the
wing baggage area for ease of retrieving fuel from the ?street?.

That?s been the experience so far.

Do fly safe,

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com


--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.


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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Reply with quote

Not looking at the STC you buddy has for his Beech I can't be 100% sure but if it calls for say 87 octane and he is removing the Ethanol out of the 87 Octane he isn't flying with 87 octane fuel and is in violation of the STC.

Now he may be pulling the Ethanol out of a higher grade gas and his STC is calling for a lower grade and that MIGHT make him OK but he might have to prove what the octane is on the gas some day.


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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Reply with quote

I think he's using 93.

Gig, do you have any good info on this ethanol stuff. I'm actually quite interested in the whole deal. I've seen first hand problems with my boat and I sure as hell wouldn't want to see a similar problem with my plane. The engines just bog down and produce about 25% power at best.

Gig Giacona wrote:
Not looking at the STC you buddy has for his Beech I can't be 100% sure but if it calls for say 87 octane and he is removing the Ethanol out of the 87 Octane he isn't flying with 87 octane fuel and is in violation of the STC.

Now he may be pulling the Ethanol out of a higher grade gas and his STC is calling for a lower grade and that MIGHT make him OK but he might have to prove what the octane is on the gas some day.


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amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:14 pm    Post subject: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Reply with quote

Andy,
the reason your boat may have issues on ethanol is your tanks may be glass or plastic, and your hoses may not be ethanol tolerant. Many boats are having to have their tanks replaced due to this. Dude, your boat sounds like it needs some major ayuda! 25% power, ouch!

Your plane (depending on engine compession) can take ethanol depending on hoses and plastics in carburator. Set up the plane to burn ethanol correctly and you should not have issues. On the 3300 Jabiru, I have NASCAR race lines that can take ethanol, and the carbi is set for some ethonal tollerance. depends on the compression of the engine as well. The EGTs may burn hotter so you may need to burn the engine at cruise richer.

Juan

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ashontz



Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:27 am    Post subject: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Reply with quote

25% power when it's acting up, then back to 100%, then 25% power intermittantly, It's only done it once or twice last summer for about 5 minutes of a trip out, then ran fine the rest of the time. But I wouldn't want to have that 5 minute experince in the air.

Actually the tanks are aluminum. I think I even have new hoses too.

Hadn't thought of the compression. Now that I think about it, the 140 Evinrude I have is kind of a notorious engine in that it's the same block as the 115hp, it just uses higher compression to make power. The next step up is a 150hp and that's 6 cylinders. The 140s should probably have been designed as 6 cylinder engines, not 4. It's just asking too much of an engine. And my little truck has compression something like 10.5 or 11:1, which is also pretty high. A normal compression check on my Nissan pickup is something like 140psi. It's 23 years old with close to 300,000 miles, and yet I still have that 140psi compression on all the cylinders believe it or not.
amyvega2005(at)earthlink. wrote:
Andy,
the reason your boat may have issues on ethanol is your tanks may be glass or plastic, and your hoses may not be ethanol tolerant. Many boats are having to have their tanks replaced due to this. Dude, your boat sounds like it needs some major ayuda! 25% power, ouch!

Your plane (depending on engine compession) can take ethanol depending on hoses and plastics in carburator. Set up the plane to burn ethanol correctly and you should not have issues. On the 3300 Jabiru, I have NASCAR race lines that can take ethanol, and the carbi is set for some ethonal tollerance. depends on the compression of the engine as well. The EGTs may burn hotter so you may need to burn the engine at cruise richer.

Juan

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:42 am    Post subject: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Reply with quote

nice. my volvo has 300,000 miles and still kickin.

JUan

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Gig Giacona



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:56 am    Post subject: Re: using 87-0ctane with ethanol Reply with quote

Just Google Ethanol. Most of the results will be either how it will save the world or starve it but hidden in there is some good information. Then search around the AOPA and EAA sites there is some very good info there.

As far as your buddy's Beech goes if his STC calls for 93 Octane that isn't what he is running if he takes out the Ethanol. I don't know how much the Ethanol boosts the octane so he might not even be running 87.

As for your boat. Sounds like big slugs of water laced Ethanol or hose goo to me.

I had always intended to run 93 octane MoGas in my Corvair powered 601XL. I can still get it and since I know some guys at the refinery I may even be able to contintue to get it for a while at least. But if the time comes that I can't I will be running 100LL. It will be tested with both during the 40 hour fly off.


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