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russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: q

List

New subject, and no rush about getting answers. I spect many are  

readying for MV trips.

But does anyone have a stall-warning horn or light? I've done a lot  

of low-altitude, low speed flying (mostly swordfish spotting and  

whale research) and have relied fairly heavily on having a stall- 

warning alarm. At least I think I have; after hundreds of hours it's  

all automatic by now. Have been accused of wearing out the stall- 

warning horn; but that's not (quite) true.

However I THINK I will need some sort of approach-to-stall warning  

when I start flying a Kolb.

Opinions?

Russ Kinne

do not archive

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: q

At 07:59 PM 5/4/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



List

New subject, and no rush about getting answers. I spect many are

readying for MV trips.

But does anyone have a stall-warning horn or light? I've done a lot

of low-altitude, low speed flying (mostly swordfish spotting and

whale research) and have relied fairly heavily on having a stall- 

warning alarm. At least I think I have; after hundreds of hours it's

all automatic by now. Have been accused of wearing out the stall- 

warning horn; but that's not (quite) true.

However I THINK I will need some sort of approach-to-stall warning

when I start flying a Kolb.

Opinions?

Russ Kinne

do not archive


	


I don't know anyone that has one on a Kolb.

I don't think you are going to need one, you can feel the stall coming and

it (or mine) just mushes and tries to keep flying.

Here's flying right on the edge of a stall - 25mph.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8643180947591432536&hl=en



I you want a good clean break, you pretty much have to yank the nose up.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1724203084033037294&hl=en

_________________
Possum

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: q

Hey Possum,



        That was odd watching the stall where you pulled the stick back



to make it stall more..... I noticed you never had to really push the stick 



forward to recover....

.

.

.



Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN

.

.

.

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: q

At 07:59 PM 5/4/2008, Russ Kinne wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  However I THINK I will need some sort of approach-to-stall warning

when I start flying a Kolb.

Opinions?


	


Learned to fly in 150's that had stall horns, never had one in my T-Craft, 

or the Quick I flew for awhile, or my US... and never missed it.  If you 

practice stalls, know your plane, and know that an imminent stall feels 

like, you won't need a horn.



-Dana

--

  Why are there Interstate highways in Hawaii?

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: q

> But does anyone have a stall-warning horn or light?  



 	  Quote: 	
		   Russ Kinne

 
	


Russ:



That is what I use my ASI for.



john r

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: q

It would have to be a pretty loud horn for me to hear it  

BB

do not archive



On 4, May 2008, at 8:55 PM, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 > But does anyone have a stall-warning horn or light?

> Russ Kinne

 Russ:



 That is what I use my ASI for.



 john r

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: q

At 08:38 PM 5/4/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hey Possum,



         That was odd watching the stall where you pulled the stick back



to make it stall more..... I noticed you never had to really push the stick



forward to recover....


	


I noticed that too, now that you mentioned it.

But I don't really think about what I'm doing anymore, I've been

in the same plan so long.

The plan picks up enough speed on the break without me having to

add any - I guess.

The controls used to be sloppy at 30mph - before I added the VGs.

But I know you don't need them if you don't want to add them.

_________________
Possum

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:34 am Post subject: q

I don't think you will be able to get a stall horn  that will be loud enough to hear but  you can try "good luck" I never  needed one though 

 do not archive

 Ellery in Maine

  

  In a message dated 5/4/2008 8:49:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  d-m-hague(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: Dana Hague    <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net>



At 07:59 PM 5/4/2008, Russ Kinne    wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  However I THINK I will need some sort of approach-to-stall    warning

when I start flying a Kolb.

Opinions?


	


Learned to    fly in 150's that had stall horns, never had one in my T-Craft, 

or the    Quick I flew for awhile, or my US... and never missed it.  If you    

practice stalls, know your plane, and know that an imminent stall feels    

like, you won't need a horn.



-Dana

--

  Why are there    Interstate highways in    es  y       -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  nbsp;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================



	




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  [quote][b]

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: Re: q

I noticed that when I fly a J-3 cub with the doors open I have a built in stall warning.



The lower section of the door folds down.  When you are just beginning a stall the air flow will lift the door up.  This happens just a second or two before I can feel the stall.  I wonder if a ribbon tied on your strut might do the same thing?  Nice and cheap!



Rex Rodebush

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: Re: q

Russ,  Have you thought or heard about about an 'Angle of Attack' or 'Lift Reserve Indicator' ? If you want to go further with this then perhaps a 'google' search and a little research on the subject might be in order. 



I watched a demo at Sun'n Fun last month and it was impressive.The major advantage of this device is it indicates your current angle of attack regardless of airspeed or g loading etc, whereas the Indicated Air Speed at stall is only valid for a given set of circumstances. Change the circumstances and the IAS value will change with it.



There seem to be some fairly simple and cheap DIY versions available right through to sophisticated models with audio warning and/or blinking lights as you approach the critical angle. Those come with a higher price tag of course.



Might be worth looking at anyway.



Fly safe !



David.

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: q

Russ, I havn't got anywhere near the time in spam cans that I imagine you have but I did spend at least 500 hrs inthe right seat of a 172 and about the same in  a Heleo Courier I have flown a Firestar 490 hrs and did a lot of low level tight turns at just above stall speed and my 2 cents is DONT WORRY ABOUT IT  you will be able to fly slower and lower than you ever flew before and at that " you will still be well above stall speed "! just my 2cents Chris



 ---

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: q

Chris, list, allThanx for the input in  re stall warnings.

I may not have made myself clear. In whale research I'm usually 300-500AGL and putting all my attention  out the window, shooting pix. It does help to have an audible warning.

I love the way a J3's door acts as as an AOA indicator, and I imagine I'll be able to feel a Kolb well before it quits flying. But I did want to ask.

Russ Kinne

do  not archive 





On May 5, 2008, at 7:59 PM, chris davis wrote:

[quote]Russ, I havn't got anywhere near the time in spam cans that I imagine you have but I did spend at least 500 hrs inthe right seat of a 172 and about the same in  a Heleo Courier I have flown a Firestar 490 hrs and did a lot of low level tight turns at just above stall speed and my 2 cents is DONT WORRY ABOUT IT  you will be able to fly slower and lower than you ever flew before and at that " you will still be well above stall speed "! just my 2cents Chris



[b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: q

Russ K:

  

 At that altitude you could stall a Kolb and recover  several times, unless you were sound asleep.  Like I have said previously,  I depend on the ASI to keep me above stall speed, especially when I am near the  ground or water.

  

 If you are that engrossed in photography, suggest  you get a pilot to fly you.

  

 One that depends entirely on his instincts to keep  from stalling will one day pay the price.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

   I'm usually 300-500AGL  Russ Kinne

 [quote]    

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Williamson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: Re: q

A "q" or "Q" or anything that doesn't define what you are posting about only makes some of us ignore your posts. 



Some of us are real lazy and only read what we might have an interest in or some first hand knowledge on the "Subject". 



do not archive

_________________
John Williamson
Arlington, TX

Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: Q

PatDelighted you're getting some flight time in  your Kolb.

But most concerned about your trim  problems.

Rather than  try to overpower the fault, you should be able to CORRECT the fault. Needing a lot of stick force simply means it's trying to fly sideways -- you must figure out WHY and fix it. Sounds as tho it's fighting itself in  the air.

Yes, I know that's easy to me to say, from  2500 miles away.

But you don't need any more problems!

Fair winds, stable stick-forces,

Russ

do not archive



On May 8, 2008, at 12:26 PM, pj.ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi,

managed another 30 minutes flying in the Xtra  yesterday in very thermic conditions with poor viz. Landed after the flight with my wrist aching from holding up the port wing.

 

I have the wing incidence set to produce maximum lift on the port wing and minimum on the starboard, within the limits of fiddling with the washers and I had about 40 litres of water lashed to  the passengers seat. Still a  long way out of trim

 

I plan to use the `bungee round the stick` method on my next flight to see if that helps. After that it seems that the only recourse is  to fit a trim tab.  I am sure someone has experience with this. Any comments? I presume that I should fit it to the aileron in such a way that it tends to push the s`board aileron down and the port one, up.

Anyone any ideas for fixing. There doesn`t seem much there to pop a rivet in.  What about a Velcro strip ?. At least that could be used temporarily to try the idea out. 

Any ideas about he size a tab would need to be?

 

Beautiful day today. Hot and sunny. Unfortunately blowing half a gale. If it doesn`t drop this evening there will be no flying today

 

Pat

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	


 [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: Q

, you should be able to  CORRECT the fault.  >>

  

 I could probably do that with a 200 lb. plus person  in the passenger seat. Didn`t have this trouble with the Challenger where the  passenger sits behind the pilot as God intended.

  

 Cheers

  

 Patl

   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: Q

Patrick:

  

 Recommend youj sell your Kolb and buy another  Challenger.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]   Didn`t have this trouble with the Challenger    where the passenger sits behind the pilot as God intended.

    

    

   Patl

 	  Quote: 	
		   	
[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: Q

Recommend youj sell your Kolb and buy another  Challenger.>>

  

 With VG`s fitted.?

  

 Pat 

  

  

   [quote][b]

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: Re: q

Sounds like a good VG application to me.



I think that the high sink rate of the mush would give you a sign.



I know that there are Audio variometers for gliders and handhelds for Hang gliders and Paragliders that you can set the sink rate alarm.



That would be annoying though for regular flying so you would have to turn the volume down, but you may start catching thermals and riding them up at idle power.



How does the stall horn know you are stalled? Airspeed or AOA?

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:43 am Post subject: Re: q

 	  jb92563 wrote: 	
		  Sounds like a good VG application to me.



I think that the high sink rate of the mush would give you a sign.



I know that there are Audio variometers for gliders and handhelds for Hang gliders and Paragliders that you can set the sink rate alarm.



That would be annoying though for regular flying so you would have to turn the volume down, but you may start catching thermals and riding them up at idle power.



How does the stall horn know you are stalled? Airspeed or AOA? 	




Stall horns work off of AOA not airspeed (stall is a function of AOA, not airspeed). 



ASI's are not nearly as reliable as recognition of pitch attitude when it comes to recognizing stalls. Ask any glider pilot - gust stalls happen all the time aloft when working marginal lift, especially through a shear layer. The ASI is all but useless in recognition and recovery from these types of stalls; thats why pitch attitude is what you hear over and over from the CFI-G in the back seat rather than airspeed....

Works the same way in any fixed wing, but it's paramount in a glider.



FWIW,

LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

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