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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: trim

Hi,

 managed another 30 minutes flying in the Xtra   yesterday in very thermic conditions with poor viz. Landed after the  flight with my wrist aching from holding up the port wing.

  

 I have the wing incidence set to produce maximum  lift on the port wing and minimum on the starboard, within the limits of  fiddling with the washers and I had about 40 litres of water lashed to  the  passengers seat. Still a  long way out of trim

  

 I plan to use the `bungee round the stick` method  on my next flight to see if that helps. After that it seems that the only  recourse is  to fit a trim tab.  I am sure someone has experience  with this. Any comments? I presume that I should fit it to the aileron in such a  way that it tends to push the s`board aileron down and the port one,  up.

 Anyone any ideas for fixing. There doesn`t seem  much there to pop a rivet in.  What about a Velcro strip ?. At least that  could be used temporarily to try the idea out. 

 Any ideas about he size a tab would need to  be?

  

 Beautiful day today. Hot and sunny. Unfortunately  blowing half a gale. If it doesn`t drop this evening there will be no flying  today

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: trim

Pat, presumption correct.  How close are the two wings to each other using a protractor?Shouldn't be THAT much off.  Was it like this pre-accident?

I currently have a homely looking tab on the right wing, I plan on replacing it with a longer.

narrower one for esthetic reasons.  Haven't rushed it because it flies hands-off.

Of course you could fly it right seat like you do your motorcars to compensate.

BB

do not archive

On 8, May 2008, at 12:26 PM, pj.ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi,

managed another 30 minutes flying in the Xtra  yesterday in very thermic conditions with poor viz. Landed after the flight with my wrist aching from holding up the port wing.

 

I have the wing incidence set to produce maximum lift on the port wing and minimum on the starboard, within the limits of fiddling with the washers and I had about 40 litres of water lashed to  the passengers seat. Still a  long way out of trim

 

I plan to use the `bungee round the stick` method on my next flight to see if that helps. After that it seems that the only recourse is  to fit a trim tab.  I am sure someone has experience with this. Any comments? I presume that I should fit it to the aileron in such a way that it tends to push the s`board aileron down and the port one, up.

Anyone any ideas for fixing. There doesn`t seem much there to pop a rivet in.  What about a Velcro strip ?. At least that could be used temporarily to try the idea out. 

Any ideas about he size a tab would need to be?

 

Beautiful day today. Hot and sunny. Unfortunately blowing half a gale. If it doesn`t drop this evening there will be no flying today

 

Pat

 	  Quote: 	
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 [quote][b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: trim

Oy'e Mate!!



Pat, If it were me I'd back up a little before I started adding a trim tab.  That strikes as a "band-aid" fix for possibly a much more serious problem.  

  Have you checked the wings' complete angle of incidence at several location...with a digital level?  It might be a good idea to make a drawing of your wings, and take a digital reading at 4-5 precise locations for both wings.  This should reveal "why" the heavy left wing!!  (Be sure to level the fuselage to at least a tenth of a degree!)

  Before I started attaching stuff to the outside of the plane, I would insure the fuselage cage is PERFECT, with the wing attach points EXACTLY the same, and not off any between the two rear locations!! (most likely it isn't, but you sure would want to verify that!)

  By the way, if for some reason the wing rear attach fittings were off a little, I'd ask TNK to weld you a offset fitting.  

  If you establish the fuselage is exactly straight and square, and the wings are rigged exactly the same, then double check the tailfeathers, to make sure they don't have some hidden twist in their mounting.  



  I know you are a bright chap, and probably did all these things, but I'd recommend finding out WHY the port wing is so heavy, prior to adding a trim tab.



  Are these the same wings involved in your mishap?  Did this "tweak" them?  Your digital level should reveal the "gremlin".



  Just my thoughts.  Tah!



Mike Welch

MkIII

________________________________



From: pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: trim

Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:26:18 +0100



Hi,



managed another 30 minutes flying in the Xtra  yesterday in very thermic conditions with poor viz. Landed after the flight with my wrist aching from holding up the port wing.



I have the wing incidence set to produce maximum lift on the port wing and minimum on the starboard, within the limits of fiddling with the washers and I had about 40 litres of water lashed to  the passengers seat. Still a  long way out of trim



I plan to use the `bungee round the stick` method on my next flight to see if that helps. After that it seems that the only recourse is  to fit a trim tab.  I am sure someone has experience with this. Any comments? I presume that I should fit it to the aileron in such a way that it tends to push the s`board aileron down and the port one, up.



Anyone any ideas for fixing. There doesn`t seem much there to pop a rivet in.  What about a Velcro strip ?. At least that could be used temporarily to try the idea out.



Any ideas about he size a tab would need to be?



Beautiful day today. Hot and sunny. Unfortunately blowing half a gale. If it doesn`t drop this evening there will be no flying today



Pat





_________________________________________________________________

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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: trim

Pat

  

 Wow that is quite a bit out of trim. Please double  check you have the wing incidence adjusters set correctly. Sounds like you have  a incidence adjustor on each wing if not get one for the other side. Look  down the wing leading edge, then the trailing edge from one of the wing tip  towards the other. Are the wings aligned the same? Are the wings or a  wing twisted? You may be out of alignment enough that you can drill another  front wing attachment hole on one of the wings to get it within the limits of  your incidence adjusters. You want to drill the hole far enough away from the  original hole that you will have enough metal between the holes for adequate  strength. Sounds like you will. 

  

 Flying to MESA on Thursday and then driving to MV  on Friday.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC 

 [quote]   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: trim

Patrick:

  

 Keep that up and you will catch up with me and my  flight time in a MKIIIx.

  

 You did not mention is the X was trimmed up in  yaw.  If not, the X will fly one wing low.

  

 The latest X needed a normal sized MKIII rudder  trim tab to get the aircraft trimmed up in yaw.  Without it, it would fly  one wing low.

  

 Who built your X.  Very uncommon for a Kolb to  have that much problem in roll, especially while hauling water in the right  seat.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    managed another 30    minutes flying in the Xtra  yesterday in very thermic conditions with    poor viz. Landed after the flight with my wrist aching from holding up the    port wing.

    

   Pat

 	  Quote: 	
		   	
[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: trim

Rick N:

  

 Sounds like he may have his Kentucky Windage  adjusters adjusted backwards.  Probably would not be hard to do with a  little help from Murphy.

  

 Never heard of a Kolb with that much adverse roll  problem.

  

 john h

 mkIII - Departing Tuesday for MV, Lord willing and  the creek don't rise.  Hopefully, all these weather systems will move on  through before I have to go.  Its a long way to MV from hauck's holler,  especially when there is a couple bad weather systems between here and  there.

 [quote]    Wow that is quite    a bit out of trim. 

    

   Rick Neilsen

    

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Steven Green

Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 118

Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: trim

Pat,

  

 Check to see that the offset joint is turned with  the offset down on the left wing and that it is adjusted so that the trailing  edge of the left wing is as low as possible.  If you have an offset joint  on the right wing it should be turned with the offset up.  

  

 Your proposed aileron trim is backwards.  If  you want the left wing up the left aileron needs to go down.

  

 Steven

 MK3

 912S

  

  

 [quote]   Hi,

   managed another 30 minutes flying in the Xtra     yesterday in very thermic conditions with poor viz. Landed after the    flight with my wrist aching from holding up the port wing.

    

   I have the wing incidence set to produce maximum    lift on the port wing and minimum on the starboard, within the limits of    fiddling with the washers and I had about 40 litres of water lashed to     the passengers seat. Still a  long way out of trim

    

   I plan to use the `bungee round the stick` method    on my next flight to see if that helps. After that it seems that the only    recourse is  to fit a trim tab.  I am sure someone has    experience with this. Any comments? I presume that I should fit it to the    aileron in such a way that it tends to push the s`board aileron down and the    port one, up.

   Anyone any ideas for fixing. There doesn`t seem    much there to pop a rivet in.  What about a Velcro strip ?. At least that    could be used temporarily to try the idea out. 

   Any ideas about he size a tab would need to    be?

    

   Beautiful day today. Hot and sunny. Unfortunately    blowing half a gale. If it doesn`t drop this evening there will be no flying    today

    

   Pat

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

_________________
Steven Green

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:45 am Post subject: trim

Thanks Steve,

  

 I will check. Sorry about the boo boo., can`t think  things through as well as I once did. Slapped wrist. I bet you are not the only  one to catch me out. Oh the shame, the humiliatiion.

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:07 am Post subject: trim

Hi John

  

 <<Keep that up and you will catch up with me  and my flight time in a MKIIIx>>

  

 I should live so long.

  

 <<You did not mention is the X was trimmed up  in yaw.  If not, the X will fly one wing low.>>

  

 String stays pretty much in the middle so I don`t  think it is that.  I have no trim tab on the rudder and can`t remember one  on the plans. I shall have to check.

 The rebuild was done by a professional. Like you we  have to construct more than 50% of the plane  but that rule doesn`t apply  to repairs. The guy has a good reputation and the work I saw before it was  covered seemed good. Not that I know much about metalwork. I grew up in a Timber  and Builders Merchnts so I am more at home with wood.

  

 Good luck on the way to MV

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: trim

back up a little before I started adding a trim tab. >>



Hi Mike,

thanks for your thoughts. I will do some checking.  Someone else has pointed 

out that the rear wing fittings are slightly different and should be fitted 

one way up on one wing and `upside down` on the other.



The port wing is the one that was rebuilt after the crunch but the builder 

has a top class reputation and I would not expect him to build a cranky 

wing. Still, even Homer nods.



Cheers



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: trim

Wow that is quite a bit out of  trim>>

  

 Hi Rick,

 thanks for the advice. The adjusters look like the  first step.

  

 Advice is pouring in. What a great  list.

  

 Enjoy MV. Wish I could make it again this  year

  

 Cheers and thanks

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: trim

I currently have a homely looking tab on the right  wing, I plan on  

replacing it with a longer.

narrower one for  esthetic reasons.  Haven't rushed it because it  

flies  hands-off.>>

  

 Hi Robert,

  

 What size is your tab and what size are you  thinking of going to. What have you made it from. Metal,. perspex?   How is it fixed and to what. Aileron trailing edge is pretty thin to take a  rivet.

  

 It has been pointed out to me that I got the  `push-pull` direction wrong . Probably a whole new thread there!

  

 Thanks

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:01 am Post subject: trim

At 06:31 AM 5/9/2008, pj.ladd wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  What size is your tab and what size are you thinking of going to. What have you made it from. Metal,. perspex?  How is it fixed and to what. Aileron trailing edge is pretty thin to take a rivet. 	


 Pat, I put trim tabs on the elevator of my US using .025 aluminum (Alclad) and I held them on with #4-40 screws tapped into the trailing edge tube... figuring I could easily remove them or also easily drill them out and use 1/8" rivets if necessary for a more permanent attachment, but so far it hasn't been necessary, they're holding fine.



 -Dana

 --

  Campaigns to bearproof all garbage containers in some national parka have been difficult, because as one biologist put it, "There is a considerable overlap between the intelligence levels of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists."    [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: trim

Me too with the screws.  I used little dome head stainless.  I figured I could easily takeit off if it wasn't right.   I bent a little "L" at the attach area and then bent that to fit the aileron

Over a piece of round tube.  It has a little wiggle but hasn't fallen off yet.

The shape is approx.  6" X 2"  and when I make a new one it will be 10" X 1 1/2"

I will also run a bead of silicone behind it.

Wings are still wrapped in an old pool cover up in the shed so those numbers are from memory.

BB



On 9, May 2008, at 6:55 AM, Dana Hague wrote:

[quote] At 06:31 AM 5/9/2008, pj.ladd wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  What size is your tab and what size are you thinking of going to. What have you made it from. Metal,. perspex?  How is it fixed and to what. Aileron trailing edge is pretty thin to take a rivet. 	


 Pat, I put trim tabs on the elevator of my US using .025 aluminum (Alclad) and I held them on with #4-40 screws tapped into the trailing edge tube... figuring I could easily remove them or also easily drill them out and use 1/8" rivets if necessary for a more permanent attachment, but so far it hasn't been necessary, they're holding fine.



 -Dana

 --

  Campaigns to bearproof all garbage containers in some national parka have been difficult, because as one biologist put it, "There is a considerable overlap between the intelligence levels of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists."  	  Quote: 	
		  

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: trim

Patrick:

  

 A MKIIIx with no adverse yaw problem is one of a  kind.  I know of no other that does not fly without a rudder trim  tab.

  

 In fact, all my Kolbs, US, FS, and MKIII, required  rudder trim tabs or a very strong foot.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    <<You did    not mention is the X was trimmed up in yaw.  If not, the X will fly one    wing low.>>

    

   String stays pretty much in the middle so I don`t    think it is that.  I have no trim tab on the rudder and can`t remember    one on the plans. I shall have to check.

    

   Good luck on the way to MV

    

   Pat

    

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: trim

Hi,  

managed another 30 minutes flying in the Xtra  yesterday in very thermic conditions with poor viz. Landed after the flight with my wrist aching from holding up the port wing.   Just to make things crystal clear in my mind,,,  you are saying it rolls to the left if you let go of the stick?  

   

I have the wing incidence set to produce maximum lift on the port wing and minimum on the starboard, within the limits of fiddling with the washers and I had about 40 litres of water lashed to  the passengers seat. Still a  long way out of trim  

   

I plan to use the `bungee round the stick` method on my next flight to see if that helps. After that it seems that the only recourse is  to fit a trim tab.  I am sure someone has experience with this. Any comments? I presume that I should fit it to the aileron in such a way that it tends to push the s`board aileron down and the port one, up.   If the trim tab pushes the s’board/right  aileron down and the port/left aileron up,  that will cause it to roll to the left even worse  

Anyone any ideas for fixing. There doesn’t seem much there to pop a rivet in. I  put 2 or 3 pop rivits into the trailing edge, and one on each rib, at the forward part of the tab. What about a Velcro strip ?. At least that could be used temporarily to try the idea out.   

Any ideas about he size a tab would need to be? .     if the aircraft rolls left (hands off)  then you want the trim tab to force the left/port aileron down and the right/s’board aileron up  depending on the force required to keep it straight and level,  will dictate the amount of trim tab required.  My trim tab fits between two ribs on the aileron,  total length is about 4 inches front to back, with a bend at the center,  with the front half laid flat on a table, the trailing edge is about ½ inch off the table. That should give you some idea on the amount of bend required.    

   

If the plane roles to the left you would be best served by placing the trim tab at the bottom  center of the right aileron  with the bend pointing down.   

   

Beautiful day today. Hot and sunny. Unfortunately blowing half a gale. If it doesn`t drop this evening there will be no flying today  

   

Pat   	  Quote: 	
		   	
  

Before I put on a tab, I would adjust the incidence of the wing so that when in straight and level flight,  both of the ailerons lined up with the flaps.   Then remove the roll with the trim tab.  

   

When I first built my MKIII rolled to the right,   but when in straight and level flight the ailerons were straight with the flaps,   I changed the incidence of the wings to eliminate the stick pressure but then the ailerons in relation to the  flaps were no longer in a straight line.  So I took the incidence changes back out of the wings and installed the trip tab,  it now flies straight with no stick pressure and the entire training edge lines up nicely while in flight.  

   

Boyd Young  

Kolb MKIII C  

Brigham City Ut.  

   

       [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: trim

Thanks everyone for your suggestions regarding my  trim problem.

  

 Just returned from my field and Steve Green seems  to have hit the nail on the head with his suggestion that the offset joint  connecting the trailing edge to the cage was upside down..  They are both  the wrong way round. The worst possible combination.

 Shall have to leave the work until tomorrow as I  shall need another pair of hands to support the wing.

  

 Pity as it is a quiet evening, warm, no wind and a  flight would have been nice. There isa bit of thundercloud building, white but  very hard edged so it will probably rain in the next few hours.

  

 Thanks again to everyone on this great list. I will  report back on the success or otherwise of the corrective work. Fingers  crossed.

  

 Pat 

   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: trim

I changed the incidence of the wings to  eliminate the stick pressure but then the ailerons in relation to the   flaps were no longer in a straight line>>

  

 Hi Boyd,

  

 Haven`t been able to get the extra pair of hands I  need to do the wing attachment change and  it will have to wait to Monday  now. Pity as today has been absolutely windless, with a reasonable cloudbase  increasing as the day went on. Tonight we have had the first BBQ of the summer.  The evening is perfectly quiet, the birds singing so I have consoled myself with  curried chicken on the barbie and a rather nice Pinot Grigio.

  

 I had realised that changing the wing attachments  would slightly alter the aileron settings but I will cross that bridge when I  come to it. Lets see how it flies next week. The Wx is good for the next few  days.

  

 Thanks for your input. I have printed it out and  added it to the many other suggestions from the list.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: trim

"The port wing is the one that was rebuilt after the crunch but the builder 

has a top class reputation"

=============================

A reputation is only good till the next time one screws up. Then he gotta start earning it all over again. I have been doing aviation stuff for many years, I try to do everything myself but sometimes I havta pay others for things I can't  do. Reputations in my world means that the shop has not screwed up recently or that I simply didn't talk to the right people. In other words everybody screws up, if it is or isn't your turn to be screwed is just another point on a statistics graph. 

Sorry for the cynicism but that's the way the world works most times.    

just a few days ago a fellow with good "reputation" cross threaded a nut on a wheel stud on My GMC Yukon between El Paso and Arizona. I saw him put the nut in the impact wrench and then bolt it on, I was tired so I didn't even notice it. Normal practice is to hand mount the nut and then use the impact wrench to tighten. The fellow had good reputation, till he did that. Stuff happens !!!!



do not archive

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: trim

John,

  My MK-3 also has a big trim tab.Is it possible to off-set the vertical stabilizer a little to correct some of it?I was afraid to bend the tubing,and I couldn't think of another way to try.A lot of the yaw goes away when I power down.There is enough weight from the tab back there to start the rudder oscillating, with no tension on the pedals.Took the tab off and the wiggle stopped but it flew sideways.Tried a spring & cable  tension adjustment lever but never found the right combination.Maybe need to aim the engine in a different direction.G Aman MK-3 C 2200 Jabiru



---

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