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battery tenders

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icubob(at)newnorth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: battery tenders

since battery tenders have become popular the last  few years i acquired 1/2 dz from harbor frt. they were 3-5 $ each and seem to  work well. snowmobile, atv, skidsteer, motorcycle, etc have never had a low  battery since. output varied, so much that i would take a voltmeter along to  test units before they went in my shopping cart. one unit put out too much  voltage and i lowered it with a diode. it keeps the battery at 13.7-13.8 volts  now. is the diode inhibiting any function of the tender to regulate current  supplied to the battery? does a $5 unit even have the brains to regulate  anything?

  thanks for any input

                                            bob noffs

    [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: battery tenders

At 11:45 AM 5/18/2008 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  since battery tenders have become popular the last few years i acquired 

1/2 dz from harbor frt. they were 3-5 $ each and seem to work well. 

snowmobile, atv, skidsteer, motorcycle, etc have never had a low battery 

since. output varied, so much that i would take a voltmeter along to test 

units before they went in my shopping cart. one unit put out too much 

voltage and i lowered it with a diode. it keeps the battery at 13.7-13.8 

volts now. is the diode inhibiting any function of the tender to regulate 

current supplied to the battery? does a $5 unit even have the brains to 

regulate anything?

  thanks for any input


	


   Can't tell without tearing it open and also

   running tests to deduce performance. What we

   want to see from a true "tender" is a recharge

   curve with a behavior like this:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Tender_Recharge.pdf



   Note the top-off dwell during the interval

   before it drops to the "tending" mode.



   There are some semi-smart chargers like:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Battery_Minder_Recharge.pdf



   That don't have a top-off dwell. Further, the voltage

   at which full-charge is expected is somewhat shy

   of optimal. I've purchased only one Battery Minder

   and pitched it after seeing the tests. I have a

   three or four Battery Tenders in the stable of

   battery maintenance tools along with a number of

   Schumacher products.



   About the best bargain I've seen so far is the

   Schumacher WM-1562A charger often offered by

   Wallmart and others. It has a very intelligent

   recharge profile . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_3.jpg



   . . . and sells for under $20.



   Schumacher builds some larger, equally sophisticated

   devices at attractive prices . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_5.jpg



   I failed to write down the charger I was evaluating

   here but I think it was a middle-sized device and probably

   sold for under $60.



   Unless you have the equipment to grab plots like these

   it's sort a pig-in-a-poke deal. At first blush, I'd

   guess that the $5 H.F. devices behave more like the

   Battery Minder and while much better than a trickle

   charger (no smarts at all) it fall far short of the

   best we know how to do for just a few dollars more.



   Just went to the H.F. website and got pictures and

   stock numbers on their current offerings. I posted

   them at:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/



   I'm guessing that the charger you're asking about

   is one of these two:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/42292.gif



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/Junk_1.jpg



   There's another interesting one . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/93258.gif



   designed to mount permanently in the vehicle where

   a battery is to be maintained.



   I've already looked at the Junker . . . next

   time I'm in the store, I'll pick up copies of the

   other small chargers and test them. I note further

   that H.F. is offering Schumacher products as well

   as their own. Everything we've been talking about sells

   for under $70 with some devices in the $18 range.



   Short answer is that anything with Schumacher's

   name on it is a pretty good bet. The other devices

   may offer good value and performance too . . . but

   you don't know without testing. Which H.F. stock

   number device are you wondering about?



   Bob . . .

rjquillin

Joined: 13 May 2007
Posts: 123
Location: KSEE

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: battery tenders

 	  Quote: 	
		  From some research I have done in the past couple of years, I've noted

Concorde has gotten touchy regarding maximum charge voltage in

maintenance or float mode.  They assert some units have been applying

an excessive, for the ambient temperature, voltage and this has caused

a decrease in service life of their AGM type batteries.

BatteryMINDer, and perhaps others, have responded by including sensors

to adjust float voltage for ambient temperature (it needs to increase

with decreasing temperature) even to the point of recalling some of

their non compensating units.  I suppose one could argue this is just

a marketing ploy to sell more chargers, but they are, or at least

were, offering replacement units at a 50% discount.  Battery details

can be found at

http://www.concordebattery.com/otherpdf/ownermanual.pdf

on page 16.

Ron Q.

On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III

<nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net>

 At 11:45 AM 5/18/2008 -0500, you wrote:

> since battery tenders have become popular the last few years i acquired

> 1/2 dz from harbor frt. they were 3-5 $ each and seem to work well.

> does a $5 unit even have the brains to

> regulate anything?

>  thanks for any input

  Can't tell without tearing it open and also

  running tests to deduce performance. What we

  want to see from a true "tender" is a recharge

  curve with a behavior like this:

  That don't have a top-off dwell. Further, the voltage

  at which full-charge is expected is somewhat shy

  of optimal. I've purchased only one Battery Minder

  and pitched it after seeing the tests. I have a

  three or four Battery Tenders in the stable of

  battery maintenance tools along with a number of

  Schumacher products.

  About the best bargain I've seen so far is the

  Schumacher WM-1562A charger often offered by

  Wallmart and others. It has a very intelligent

  recharge profile . . .

  Short answer is that anything with Schumacher's

  name on it is a pretty good bet. The other devices

  may offer good value and performance too . . . but

  you don't know without testing. Which H.F. stock

  number device are you wondering about?

  Bob . . .

icubob(at)newnorth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: battery tenders

hi bob,

  the h.f. unit i am talking about is the  #42292. appreciate your input.

  

                                                               bob noffs

    [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: battery tenders

At 05:08 PM 5/18/2008 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  hi bob,

  the h.f. unit i am talking about is the #42292. appreciate your input.



                                                              bob noffs


	


  Okay. I'll pick one up and test it.



  Bob . . .



        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: battery tenders

At 01:06 PM 5/18/2008 -0700, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 >From some research I have done in the past couple of years, I've noted

Concorde has gotten touchy regarding maximum charge voltage in

maintenance or float mode.  They assert some units have been applying

an excessive, for the ambient temperature, voltage and this has caused

a decrease in service life of their AGM type batteries.


	


    Has this shown up in print anywhere? I mean something that

    illustrates Concord's increasing tension?



 	  Quote: 	
		  BatteryMINDer, and perhaps others, have responded by including sensors

to adjust float voltage for ambient temperature (it needs to increase

with decreasing temperature) even to the point of recalling some of

their non compensating units.  I suppose one could argue this is just

a marketing ploy to sell more chargers, but they are, or at least

were, offering replacement units at a 50% discount.  Battery details

can be found at

http://www.concordebattery.com/otherpdf/ownermanual.pdf

on page 16.


	


   This document hasn't been changed with respect to charging

   recommendations for many moons. You can go to . . .



http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data.html



   and get the Concorde battery poop I've posted on

   website.



   The maintenance data speaks to fast-charging situations

   and the techniques are essentially the same for both

   flooded and AGM batteries . . . including the recommended

   BUS voltages versus for in-flight recharging.



   None of this data is particularly relevant to a

   smart battery maintainer which spends only a limited

   amount of time in the top-off mode before dropping

   to a sustain level that is not even mentioned in

   the Concorde data.



   Any words from the manufacturers of battery maintainers

   as to the "tailoring" of their product to the "special

   needs" of an AGM battery is mostly marketing hype. However

   the device tops a battery off is not terribly relevant

   to battery life . . . the event lasts but a few hours at

   modest current levels compared to the comparatively

   much larger abuse the battery receives while being

   replenished by a 60A alternator!



   As long as the maintainer drops to a true maintenance

   level (hundreds of millivolts above the battery's

   open circuit voltage) then the battery is not at-risk

   for abuse from the maintainer. That temperature

   compensating stuff doesn't hurt but don't spend a lot

   of money on it cause it doesn't make that much difference

   in battery service life.



   Bob . . .

skyking135(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: battery tenders

I have one of the 42292 units and measured the output voltage on my 

particular unit to be around 12.7 volts, noload. It was only getting the 

battery up to about 12.3 volts; not enough to keep a good charge on a 

battery. So, being the curious one that I am, I popped open the cover to 

see if I could figure out how to adjust the output voltage. I found a 

spot on the circuit board for a varistor (VR1) that had a 55ohm resistor 

soldered in that postion. I figured that must adjust the output voltage. 

I simply replaced the 55ohm resistor with a 22ohm one I had on hand. 

That boosted the ouptut to a more respectable 13.2 volts. It still will 

only charge up to about 12.9 volts which is better than the 12.3 is was 

reaching before. I think I will adjust the resistor again to see if I 

can squeeze out a little more performance.

 

Quality control is not high on the list of priorities with Harbor 

Freight. You get what you pay for.



db

earl_schroeder(at)juno.co
Guest

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: battery tenders

Hi db,

The older 42292 [or whatever (the previous generation)]did have a variable resister on the circuit board.  Nearly every one needed some adjustment as I have a dozen or so.



I purchased a minimum order of 100 ohm pots to install in the newer units.  I adjust them for 13.8 open circuit.



I've repaired six or so [mine and others] as the common failure is the transformer wire disconnects where it attaches to the plug that plugs into the 110VAC.  A sharp knife will separate the plastic housing around the transformer providing access.  I thought originally that trying to start an engine with the unit connected would melt the solder at that joint but I'm not sure.



For the money they are hard to beat but as some say, you get what you pay for..

Earl

-- skyking135  wrote:

<



I have one of the 42292 units and measured the output voltage on my 

particular unit to be around 12.7 volts, noload. It was only getting the 

battery up to about 12.3 volts; not enough to keep a good charge on a 

battery. So, being the curious one that I am, I popped open the cover to 

see if I could figure out how to adjust the output voltage. I found a 

spot on the circuit board for a varistor (VR1) that had a 55ohm resistor 

soldered in that postion. I figured that must adjust the output voltage. 

I simply replaced the 55ohm resistor with a 22ohm one I had on hand. 

That boosted the ouptut to a more respectable 13.2 volts. It still will 

only charge up to about 12.9 volts which is better than the 12.3 is was 

reaching before. I think I will adjust the resistor again to see if I 

can squeeze out a little more performance.

 

Quality control is not high on the list of priorities with Harbor 

Freight. You get what you pay for.



db

icubob(at)newnorth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: battery tenders

earl,

  a few years ago when battery tenders was a  topic here i got started on the h. f. units. i ran into a low voltagw problem. i  remember a post back then about the adjustable pots. i opened one up and no  adjustable pot. this was probably 2 years ago. that is why i shopped for them  with my voltmeter. i dont believe h. f. management will let me take them in the  backroom and test them anymore.

                                                                      bob noffs

    [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: battery tenders

At 02:24 AM 5/20/2008 +0000, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<earl_schroeder(at)juno.com>



Hi db,

The older 42292 [or whatever (the previous generation)]did have a variable 

resister on the circuit board.  Nearly every one needed some adjustment as 

I have a dozen or so.



I purchased a minimum order of 100 ohm pots to install in the newer 

units.  I adjust them for 13.8 open circuit.



I've repaired six or so [mine and others] as the common failure is the 

transformer wire disconnects where it attaches to the plug that plugs into 

the 110VAC.  A sharp knife will separate the plastic housing around the 

transformer providing access.  I thought originally that trying to start 

an engine with the unit connected would melt the solder at that joint but 

I'm not sure.



For the money they are hard to beat but as some say, you get what you pay 

for..

Earl


	


   Yup. The first "Battery Charger" I purchased from H.F. was

   this guy. 

http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Battery_Chargers/HF_Chargers/Junk_1.jpg



   It was simply a loosely regulated, low-level charger that

   might be classed as a "trickle-charger". No smarts at all

   meaning that its design did not attempt to produce a top-off

   charge followed by a non-charging support of terminal voltage

   for the purpose of offsetting internal leakage that would

   eventually discharge the battery.



   That device was evaluated years ago and it's a certainty

   that newer devices intended to compete in an increasingly

   sophisticated market will have improved features.

   The problem is a simple experiment to benchmark their

   performance for behavior and calibration which I will

   do as time permits.



   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: battery tenders

At 02:24 AM 5/20/2008 +0000, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<earl_schroeder(at)juno.com>



Hi db,

The older 42292 [or whatever (the previous generation)]did have a variable 

resister on the circuit board.  Nearly every one needed some adjustment as 

I have a dozen or so.



I purchased a minimum order of 100 ohm pots to install in the newer 

units.  I adjust them for 13.8 open circuit.



I've repaired six or so [mine and others] as the common failure is the 

transformer wire disconnects where it attaches to the plug that plugs into 

the 110VAC.  A sharp knife will separate the plastic housing around the 

transformer providing access.  I thought originally that trying to start 

an engine with the unit connected would melt the solder at that joint but 

I'm not sure.



For the money they are hard to beat but as some say, you get what you pay 

for..

Earl

-- skyking135  wrote:

<



I have one of the 42292 units and measured the output voltage on my

particular unit to be around 12.7 volts, noload. It was only getting the

battery up to about 12.3 volts; not enough to keep a good charge on a

battery. So, being the curious one that I am, I popped open the cover to

see if I could figure out how to adjust the output voltage. I found a

spot on the circuit board for a varistor (VR1) that had a 55ohm resistor

soldered in that postion. I figured that must adjust the output voltage.

I simply replaced the 55ohm resistor with a 22ohm one I had on hand.

That boosted the ouptut to a more respectable 13.2 volts. It still will

only charge up to about 12.9 volts which is better than the 12.3 is was

reaching before. I think I will adjust the resistor again to see if I

can squeeze out a little more performance.



Quality control is not high on the list of priorities with Harbor

Freight. You get what you pay for.


	


    The question that is more difficult to answer is how does

    this product behave when LOADED with a discharged battery.

    How much current does it put out, for how long and to what

    terminal voltage? Does it produce a recharge voltage curve

    that looks anything like this?



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_2.jpg



    The voltage you're measuring at very low output current

    (open circuit) may be spoofing the charger into believing

    that it's connected to a fully charged battery and causes

    it to drop into the MAINTENANCE mode where the 12.9 volt

    level you cited is quite acceptable.



    A smart-charger is a crafty little bugger that takes

    a bit more than a one-time voltmeter check to deduce

    its capabilities. Adjusting them for a MAINTENANCE level

    of 13.8 volts would be contrary to the design goals

    for a true battery maintainer.



    Bob . . .

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