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Converting to a tail dragger?

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WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: Converting to a tail dragger?

I am considering buying a partially complete Kitfox V Vixen and I am trying to determine what it would take to convert it to a tail dragger.  I have already contacted Kitfox and they say it can't be done.  I believe it can be done and i am just trying to figure out how much trouble it would be.  It is a tricycle based on a tail dragger design, so what's a little reverse engineering?



The kit already has dual brakes so moving the gear forward pretty much comes down to; how much reinforcement is needed in the area of the gear mounts that is not already present in the Vixen fuselage?  Other then that I see it as being a straight forward switch with Outback gear which is also solid aluminum and just a little shorter.



And for the tail, the two concerns are mounting and control.  In my mind it could be as simple as welding a plate to mount the leaf springs to but for some reason i just don't think it will be that simple.  What exactly does it take to solidly mount a tail wheel?  And the Vstab is swept back, about 15-20 degree.  I have been told this is a problem for a tail dragger but I don't know why.  My best guess is it makes for uneven control inputs for a steering assist tailwheel, does that sound right?  So the question there would be; can't it work with just a swivel wheel and no assist?  Obviously it would take more attention to drive around but hell, they used to just put skids on the tail.



Any helpful information would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: Converting to a tail dragger?

...I have already contacted Kitfox and they say it can't be done.  I

 believe it can be done and i am just trying to figure out ...

   

   

  You have already contacted the Mothership and received your answer. Why go any further to waste time, money and quite possibly your neck?

   

   

  "Lord, what fools these mortals be."

  William Shakespear



 [quote][b]

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Converting to a tail dragger?

Yes I have already contacted the "mother ship" and gotten AN answer, an answer which I view through these facts;



1. the company is under management that was not under employ during the time that the model in question was designed



2. the company does not manufacture the parts to readily do the conversion and so it makes sense that they would not support the idea since it is changing their design into a different configuration then was originally in mind



3. I have spoken to a few people who met with the same resistance when wanting to convert their Model 1, 2, and 3 to tricycle gear, and alas, now have aircraft that sit in the desired configuration



4. "it can't be done" is an answer I leave to people who are not capable of coming up with their own ideas, much less doing something new or something that their is not already an instruction manual for



5.  because these are experimental and relatively simple aircraft, it can be done.  It is simply a matter of how much trouble will it be and how much trouble would it be worth



And so at that I will quote my first post, 



Any HELPFUL information would be greatly appreciated.  



If you can back a "don't waste your time" statement with reason I would like to hear it, but simple negativity is not what I am looking for.  Thanks though.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Converting to a tail dragger?

Actually I would like to know why they cannot be converted as  well. 

Did A vixen come in a tail configuration ? 



Many convert taildraggers to tri gear and it seems to work. As a matter of fact I have a Kf 2 tied down here now  and I got in a hour of flying in it this week and it really is not that bad to fly with the funny looking wheel up front. It does make some clunking noise from the nose gear suspension but it does work and it turns sharp on the ground. As far as flying in and out of soft fields well the elevator had a surprising amount of authority and I can easily keep the nose gear light and it will get in and out of soft ground but not as well as my IV with King fox tires . I would not take this to the beach but I think it could do it without much trouble.

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dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: Converting to a tail dragger?

James,

  Perhaps my statement here was a bit negative, however, if you knew the people you were dealing with at Kitfox Aircraft, you would know better than to slam them on a list that they support. Tenacity is admireable and has taken many men far when told "It can't be done". You might want to clarify with whom you spoke that the word can't wasn't said to imply ...may not be practical or safe. We can make gold out of lead, but we don't bother. 

  Dan B  

  Mesa, AZ KF-IV, 912S



WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "WurlyBird" 



Yes I have already contacted the "mother ship" and gotten AN answer, an answer which I view through these facts;



1. the company is under management that was  not under employ during the time that the model in question was designed



2. the company does not manufacture the parts to readily do the conversion and so it makes sense that they would not support the idea since it is changing their design into a different configuration then was originally in mind



3. I have spoken to a few people who met with the same resistance when wanting to convert their Model 1, 2, and 3 to tricycle gear, and alas, now have aircraft that sit in the desired configuration



4. "it can't be done" is an answer I leave to people who are not capable of coming up with their own ideas, much less doing something new or something that their is not already an instruction manual for



5. because these are experimental and relatively simple aircraft, it can be done. It is simply a matter of how much trouble will it be and how much trouble would it be worth



And so at that I will quote my first post, 



Any HELPFUL information [quote][b]

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: Converting to a tail dragger?

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: WurlyBird [james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil]

 If you can back a "don't waste your time" statement with reason I would like to hear

 it, but simple negativity is not what I am looking for.  Thanks though.


	


Fear not, my friend, you will always find people who tell you that you are an idiot, on this list or at home. My wife, for example ... 

I don't want to give you any advice because I don't know much about aircraft; I didn't even built my model 3 myself.

I think it should be possible to convert any Kitfox into a taildragger. But I don't know how to. Can the tail support a tailwheel as it is? No idea!

However, I don't think you should consider a free-castoring tailwheel. I know that some of us have removed the dis-locking system of the Maule tailwheel to have it always following the rudder. But the opposite would be, in my humble opinion, quite dangerous. I think you'll need everything you can to keep the plane straight as you land.

I don't know how you are going to change the main gear so that the CoG falls behind it but if I was you, I'd try to keep it such as the tail is as light as possible. 

Beside that, I can only wish you good luck with your project and remember that you are always welcome to ask questions on this list. Asking question is never a proof of stupidity because it is born from a need to learn and that is always positive.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Converting to a tail dragger?

Whurlybird,



You are right, anything can be done with experimental aircraft.  If you can weld and have the desire to cut the fabric out of these areas, weld additional tubing and mounting plates and then recover and paint, it can be done...is it a good idea?  Well, that is up to you.  



Just some insight on the Vixen...Skystar designed the series 5 and introduced a couple models, the Vixen, Outback, Safari, and Voyager.  I am not completely sure of the differences between all these except that the Outback (and I believe the Safari) is a taildraggers.  By the way, John McBean (current owner of Kitfox) was an employee of Skystar and has tons of experience with virtually every aspect of a Kitfox there is...to say the current management doesn't know what they are talking about is simply a false statement.  I agree with Dan in that by saying "can't" I am sure he meant that it would be much more involved than it is worth.  Having said that, you can do anything with a welder and some metal...Heck, you could even hang a P&W on the front and have the most exotic Kitfox in the world.  



As far as what it would take, you could look at a later model 5 that has both the conventional gear attach points and the trike gear attachment points and try to recreate that setup.  I am not sure but you would also be wise to double check the size of the structural tubing in the cabin and the tail to verify that it is the same size of the other tailwheel kitfoxes...I would think that if Skystar designed the Vixen to be only nosewheel, they would have tried to save weight and use smaller tubing where it was warranted.



My thoughts are that if the airplane where in kit form it may make sense if that was really the way you wanted to go but to cut off fabric and then re-engineer for the tailwheel and bring back to flying condition would be a large project...Why not just look for a Series 5 Outback or Safari?

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

jcrowder(at)lpbroadband.n
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Converting to a tail dragger?

He  didn't slam anyone.  He did give his thinking on the subject and I think he  was pretty well right on.  The Kitfox people are good people, but their  advice is conservative as it should be. It does mean that they will probably not  be supporting the change beyond selling available parts.

  

 Jim

 [quote]   --

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Converting to a tail dragger?

 	  Quote: 	
		  He didn't slam anyone. He did give his thinking on the subject and I think he was pretty well right on. The Kitfox people are good people, but their advice is conservative as it should be. It does mean that they will probably not be supporting the change beyond selling available parts. 	




I agree, the same issue was brought up recently when someone wanted a Kitfox 2 main gear and Mc Bean said he did not have.  I offered to make it and then Mc Bean came through and offered assistance.  

I think Kitfox Aircraft is more into making kits for new planes plus limited parsts support as best as they can otherwise.  I think John has limited resources as he did not get all the templates etc in the purchase. They are plenty of sources available for most parts otherwise. 



For example Cessna never offered a 182 with a float kit but many are converted now and make a great float pane.  Where there is a will there is a way. 

Dave

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:55 pm Post subject: Converting to a tail dragger?

See below.

  

 > 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am considering buying a partially  complete Kitfox V Vixen and I am trying to determine what it would take to  convert it to a tail dragger.  I have already contacted Kitfox and they say  it can't be done.  I believe it can be done and i am just trying to figure  out how much trouble it would be.  It is a tricycle based on a tail dragger  design, so what's a little reverse engineering?

 snip...
	


  

 It can probably be done, but you'll  need to do a lot of welding to put in new hard points for the main gear.   Lots of engineering and welding work.  It has to be quality stuff  too.  The tail would probably need to be beefed up also.  Lots more  work, including running cable bushing standoffs and cable so you can steer  it.  Like someone else said, might be best to just pick up a S5 tail  dragger if that's what you want, then sell yours.  

 John McB was probably just trying to  save you a lot of work and expense.  Then again, if that's what you want to  do, go for it and keep us in the loop.  Lots of help here.

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5  Outback/Subaru/CAP 370+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not  be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

  

 

 

   [quote][b]

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: Converting to a tail dragger?

dave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> He didn't slam anyone. He did give his thinking on the subject and I think he was pretty well right on. The Kitfox people are good people, but their advice is conservative as it should be. It does mean that they will probably not be supporting the change beyond selling available parts. 

>     

 I agree, the same issue was brought up recently when someone wanted a Kitfox 2 main gear and Mc Bean said he did not have.  I offered to make it and then Mc Bean came through and offered assistance.  

 I think Kitfox Aircraft is more into making kits for new planes plus limited parsts support as best as they can otherwise.  I think John has limited resources as he did not get all the templates etc in the purchase. They are plenty of sources available for most parts otherwise. 

 For example Cessna never offered a 182 with a float kit but many are converted now and make a great float pane.  Where there is a will there is a way. 

 Dave

 --------

 Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

 Flying Videos and Kitfox Info

 http://www.cfisher.com/

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183722#183722

Very good thinking DAVE,,,STEVE  SHINABERY  N554KF  KF2

Cmflyboy12(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Converting to a tail dragger?

hey I have a nice ch2 longwing loaded up w/ 134 hrs on it for sale on  barnstormers 12500 I need to make hanger space for a 108-3 stinson station wagon  4 place



Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

  [quote][b]

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Converting to a tail dragger?

I suppose for my first thread on this forum I should have worded my ideas a lot more carefully.  I did not have the intention of slamming anyone, nor do I think it should have come across as such.  From what correspondence I have had with the McBeans they seem to be great people.  However, and this is completely fine, they seem to be a lot more forthcoming with information about kits and parts that they have then straight information about how to make a Franken-plane.  I can understand that, they are running a business and they have absolutely nothing to gain from me wanting to modify one of their products.  Yes, ultimately it would be best to just purchase exactly what I want in a kit right off the shelf, however dual military families don't readily have $30,000 and a few thousand hours to kill building from the ground up, so we are looking at partially complete kits.  And so I am here seeking advice and information.  And so far a few real good questions have been posed that raise more questions;



so does anyone know the diameter of the tubing used in a Vixen vs. any of their tail draggers?  From studying pictures the overall construction looks almost identical, the major difference being the curve in the bottom of the fuselage.



I am unfamiliar with exactly how tail wheel gear can be configured.  I know there is steering assist but the wheel is free to caster about with some sort of freedom.  So can this be fixed forward so the plane tracks relatively straight until a rudder input frees it from the "assistance"?



does anyone have pictures or drawings of any of the tail dragging models fuse, specifically the gear mounting area?



does anybody have a quantifiable answer as to how much reinforcement is needed at the gear attach points?

Again to kind of reinforce where I am coming from, my wife and I are looking to buy a Kitfox and came across a pretty good deal on a Vixen, we are still in the "thinking about it" stage which is why I am here.  We definitely want to preserve the bush plane flying aspect of the kit and so insist on tail wheel.  Trust me, if I could find a comparable tail dragging kit for a similar amount there would be no questions.  Since currently this is the best thing before us I have to consider the effort to convert it.  I am just trying to gather enough information so when my wife and I talk about it I can say "to convert it will take approximately $xx.xx and so many hundred hours."  So lets keep the good flow of information and ideas coming and lets not continue with the bickering.  I am trying to make friends here, not enemies.

Danny

Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 1
Location: Hopkinsville, Ky.

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: Re: Converting to a tail dragger?

WurlyBird

I'm in the early stages of building a Series 7 taildragger.  I'm located in Hopkinsville, Ky which is just 20 miles up the road from Clarksville.  You are welcome to come take a look at the latest model Kitfox for ideas, whenever you get back in country.  You can contact me by email at dtpowell(at)bellsouth.net.

Good luck

Danny

_________________
Danny Powell
Series 7/SuperSport/TD
Building

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Converting to a tail dragger?

Go to this thread from a year or so ago and scroll down about 6 or 7 posts.  There is a post from "Bob".  He was working on converting a Vixen to tail wheel.  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=93578&sid=6d13b5fab675f090d0242031947da182



If you can track him down I think he has the info you are looking for.

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Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: Converting to a tail dragger?

At 10:38 PM 5/18/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am unfamiliar with exactly how tail wheel gear can be 

configured.  I know there is steering assist but the wheel is free 

to caster about with some sort of freedom.  So can this be fixed 

forward so the plane tracks relatively straight until a rudder input 

frees it from the "assistance"?


	


At its simplest you buy a tailwheel assembly from Aircraft Spruce. 

This tailwheel assembly will have, built in, a swivel, and a release 

mechanism that allows the wheel to free caster after about 30 degrees 

of travel. It's all done for you. You then buy a tail spring assembly 

from John McBean. You will then have to add localized structure to 

support the spring to the lower fuselage just in front of the rudder. 

You shouldn't have to add or modify any primary structure. You can 

get some ideas on this structure by visiting any uncovered 5-7. One 

important thing in designing your support structure is that you 

support the spring in such a way that the tail wheel pivot axis leans 

"back". That is, the top of the pivot is "behind" the bottom. 

Otherwise you MAY get shimmy.



Next you'll have to modify the rudder by adding two athwartships 

tiller arms to the bottom so you can connect the rudder to the tail 

wheel. Again, visiting any Kitfox taildragger will give you the idea. 

(I can send exterior pictures in a day or two.)



 	  Quote: 	
		  does anybody have a quantifiable answer as to how much reinforcement 

is needed at the gear attach points?


	


I can tell you the ultimate design loads should be about three g's 

times your design gross weight spread over both wheels. (See FAR 

25.473 for the real deal.) As to how that translates into structure 

you're talking engineering that will take some time. (It sounds like 

someone's already done it. The next best bet is to simply duplicate 

the structure in existing aircraft. John may be willing to provide 

the design for the existing structure.)



 	  Quote: 	
		  Again to kind of reinforce where I am coming from, my wife and I are 

looking to buy a Kitfox and came across a pretty good deal on a 

Vixen, we are still in the "thinking about it" stage which is why I 

am here.  We definitely want to preserve the bush plane flying 

aspect of the kit and so insist on tail wheel.


	


Actually there are a number of good "bush" planes that are trikes. 

(Zenith 701, Cessna 206) There are also a lot of Kitfox trikes that 

see a lot of off-road work. (Almost the entire Desert Fox Squadron 

has switched to trikes. Don't know why, but they like 'em, and they 

do a lot of off-road.) Unfortunately you don't get the bush look.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Converting to a tail dragger?

Danny, I will definitely look you up when I get home.  I will even help you turn wrenches or sling some paint or whatever you need help with just to get to pick your brain, face to face, on the building process.  Thanks for the invitation!



Tom, thanks for the heads up on Bob.  He has not been active in a few months apparently but I sent him a message so hopefully he still has the same email address.



To every one who has contacted me off line, thanks for the information and help.



And to everyone who keeps reading this and replying, thanks.  Even the silly arguments give me a fair amount of amusement and help pass the time between missions.



I am glad I found this list, you are good people.  But hey, that is aviators in general.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraf
Guest

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Converting to a tail dragger?

I've tried sending a couple of posts.. they do not seem to be showing up....

We'll try this one...



Just for fun !!!



I have a couple more I'll try and post tomorrow.. need to find them.



Fly Safe !!

John & Debra McBean

Ph 208.337.5111

www.kitfoxaircraft.com 

"The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground"

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jdmcbean(at)kitfoxaircraf
Guest

Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: Converting to a tail dragger?

I've tried sending a couple of posts.. they do not seem to be showing up....

We'll try this one...



Just for fun !!!



I have a couple more I'll try and post tomorrow.. need to find them.



Fly Safe !!

John & Debra McBean

Ph 208.337.5111

www.kitfoxaircraft.com 

"The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground" 

--

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