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CENSORSHIP

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CLEONARD52(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: CENSORSHIP

IT IS VERY APPARENT THAT THIS LIST HAS MANY MEMBERS  THAT HAVE NO INTEREST IN BUILDING OR FLYING ZENITH AIRCRAFT. INSTEAD THEY SPEND  THERE TIME TRYING TO TEAR UP ZENITH'S REPUTATION.

  

 ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I THINK ALL POSTS THAT HAVE  NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BUILDING AND FLYING OF ZENITH AIRCRAFT SHOULD NOT APPEAR  ON THIS LIST AT ALL.

  

 WOULDN'T IT BE NICE IF THIS LIST WOULD AGAIN  REFLECT WHAT BUILDERS AND PILOTS WOULD LIKE TO READ ABOUT. THOSE WHO WANT TO  PRETEND TO BE ACCIDENT INVESTIGATORS COULD FORM A NEW LIST. THEY MIGHT CALL IT  THE SKY IS FALLING LIST.

  

 CHARLES LEONARD

  

 P.S. I AM FLYING MY  ZENITH

   [quote][b]

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: Re: CENSORSHIP

Mr Leonard,



While I am not flying (because I'm building my 701), it seems to me that discussing flight failures/accidents is relative to this list. I have no interest in a 601, but I am interested in the potential issues, that may exist. You have an audience here whom are most likely individualists. And as such make up their own mind about things. While we of course all have to wait for the official investigation results, it is human nature to discuss those things that are of interest to you. 



 All airplane models have failures and crashes. If potential builders don't find out the facts and are turned away, well then it is most likely in the best interest of Zenith to not have someone incapable of research and risk management flying their design.



stepping down from my soap box



Do Not Archive



Kevin McCune

_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: CENSORSHIP

At 08:57 AM 5/30/2008 -0400, Paul wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I suspect it was dug up by the "Engineering" group on this forum to bolster their position for an independent design review.



 Once again, huge speculations are being made, uninformed comments are being presented, and unsupported "conclusions" are being made.  



 It was a great last few weeks on the list with actually building comments being made and none of this crap.  Lets get back to the purpose of this list, which is to trade building information and support.



 Paul 	




 At 08:20 AM 5/30/2008 -0400, Jay wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  What is really suspicious to me is that this incident happened a year ago. Why is it BIG (and pervasive) news now?  



 I am now believing that there are some on this list that WANT the Zodiac to appear flawed and must have a compelling reason to discredit the design. Could it be that they have a need for Zenith to cease to exist?



 Besides those whom this string has intimidated to quit building, I know of at least one flying XL that is being parted out because of this witch hunt.



 Jay in Dallas 	


 At 10:00 AM 5/31/2008 -0400, CHARLES LEONARD wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  IT IS VERY APPARENT THAT THIS LIST HAS MANY MEMBERS THAT HAVE NO INTEREST IN BUILDING OR FLYING ZENITH AIRCRAFT. INSTEAD THEY SPEND THERE TIME TRYING TO TEAR UP ZENITH'S REPUTATION.

  

 ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I THINK ALL POSTS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BUILDING AND FLYING OF ZENITH AIRCRAFT SHOULD NOT APPEAR ON THIS LIST AT ALL.

  

 WOULDN'T IT BE NICE IF THIS LIST WOULD AGAIN REFLECT WHAT BUILDERS AND PILOTS WOULD LIKE TO READ ABOUT. THOSE WHO WANT TO PRETEND TO BE ACCIDENT INVESTIGATORS COULD FORM A NEW LIST. THEY MIGHT CALL IT THE SKY IS FALLING LIST.

  

 CHARLES LEONARD

  

 P.S. I AM FLYING MY ZENITH 	




 At 12:57 PM 5/30/2008 -0400, Juan wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I recommend you don't build, buy a production plane.  NON of the crashes are result related.  If you want details, go read results of each one.  Go build an another plane. 	




 



 I think the rhetoric is getting out of hand here. 



 These are serious accusations. Talk about uninformed speculation--that is exactly what we're reading above.



 Let's put things in perspective. Looking through my mailboxes at ~1430 Z this morning, I find 41 messages on the Zenith-List with "XL down" in the headers. A grand total of 6 of those messages were posted by contributors to the Zenith Builders Analysis Group. None of those 6 are intemperate or accusatory towards ZAC in any way. 



 On the other hand, if we consider the 35 posts by other Zenith-Listers, Gig alone accounts for 7--more than all the posts by the Group contributors combined. One Zenith "friend" may be personally responsible for pushing a potential Zenith customer away from Zenith's door. (See Juan's message above.) As the old saying goes, "With friends like that, Zenith doesn't need enemies." 



 I had the good fortune to have a long conversation with Alberto Martin a couple of days ago. When I told him that I hadn't worked on my project since the Polk City accident, he advised me to keep working. He said that he had ordered the fuselage kit from ZAC so that he could work on the fuselage while the various investigations of the wing were ongoing. 



 Hmm ... Doesn't sound like someone who has "NO INTEREST IN BUILDING OR FLYING ZENITH AIRCRAFT." 



 If I understood Alberto correctly, he personally knew two of the pilots killed in XL accidents involving structural failures. Perhaps you can fault him for being concerned about the wing structure, but I cannot. Those of you who read both the Zenith-List and the [ZBAG] forum are, hopefully, aware that Alberto initially posted the information about the French accident only to the [ZBAG] forum. He posted the link as soon as he learned of it. Considerable discussion ensued. Someone on the [ABAG]  forum suggested that readers of the Zenith-List should at least be aware of the accident, so Alberto then posted the link to the Zenith-List.  Well, I guess if you believe in conspiracies, you can find one everywhere you look. 



 I can assure Paul that, "the "Engineering" group on this forum" does not need, "to bolster their position for an independent design review." The "independent design review" is going to happen. Enough Zenith builders have agreed to contribute $300 apiece to make it possible. We would appreciate some more contributions so that we can analyze more options, but the basic analysis will definitely be done. I seriously doubt that anyone willing to contribute $300 to evaluate the structure of the wing is likely to want to damage ZAC. I wish I could guarantee that our analysis will produce an unequivocal assessment on the XL wing design. But I cannot. But, at least 23 of us are willing to support a proactive approach to find some answers. And I don't believe we deserve the accusations that are flying around on this list. 



 'Nuff said.



 Terry



 

 

 Terry Phillips

 ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

 Corvallis MT

 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings

 http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/     [quote][b]

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: CENSORSHIP

I agree Paul 100%.  I'm finding they are starting up another thread in order to keep the "fires burning".  If you did just a little research on who started this one, you will find this "accident" happened a little over a year ago.  Why rehash it now again?????  

  

 I am finding ALL of these lists that post such information (which the except of the group that decided to take their discussions to a new forum - thank you by the way!!) to be a LOT overwhelming.  Why should I build or finish an aircraft that is going to crash???  Common sense tells me I need to call a junk dealer to reclaim all my "scrap metal" I've developed and NEVER let anyone fly this death trap!!   

  

See what a lot of listers don't get is, people actually DO take everything they read to heart!  In fact I know of 3 people that have literally sold or abandoned their airplane because of what they are reading on these lists.  I for one am damned tired of reading about all the gloom and doom.  If these people insist on doing what they love to do (causing problems) I will be very shortly behind those that have decided to delete their names from all the lists.  I do agree there IS a lot of good on these lists.  I will have to weigh out how much of the bad can I take before I can't take it any longer.   

  

I WOULD suggest to Matt Dralle, that we need a forum of BONAFIDE builders that actually have VALID PLANS in hand.  They should be REQUIRED to prove they do in fact own those serialized plans before they are allowed to join the group.  That would ensure only actual builders and plan holders have a legitimate reason to be on here.  Matt could get a list of serial numbers and names of owners from Zenith.  Mine is 7128 for a CH601XL.  Anyone that can't prove it, sorry - you can't belong to the list.  This would totally eliminate any trouble makers from posting irrational rants on here.  Sounds like a good idea to me.   

  

Other comments and suggestions are of course always welcome! 

Larry Hursh 

Skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com (Skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com) 

Edwardsburg, MI 

  

CH601XL Serial Number 7128 

(N601LL Reserved)

         [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: CENSORSHIP

I've only seen a couple of irrational rants, your's  is one of them. A lot of what you learned in flight training had to do  with managing risk, assessing risk, avoiding risk. In the face of a number of  incidents, some dedicated XL owners have decided to try to get some additional  info. Others are asking for additional info. 

  

 I'm curious why your solution is to simply deny the  possibility. Censorship? Be real careful what you wish for. 

  

  

 [quote]   ---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: CENSORSHIP

Sorry Terry, but it is not in my nature to let statements made that I believe are either false or misleading to go unanswered. Especially on a topic I care about.

 	  Terry Phillips wrote: 	
		   On the other hand, if we consider the 35 posts by other Zenith-Listers, Gig alone accounts for 7--more than all the posts by the Group contributors combined. One Zenith "friend" may be personally responsible for pushing a potential Zenith customer away from Zenith's door. (See Juan's message above.) As the old saying goes, "With friends like that, Zenith doesn't need enemies."

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: CENSORSHIP

Terry,

Sometimes it is best to walk away from business than to try to please someone that will forever, bitch about your product.  I don't want to hear for the next decade from some guy that builds a plane and bitches how bad the design is.  Everyone is entitled to choices, if you don't like it, (the kit),  then buy another one or buy production and move on. Suggesting to someone that has doubts to move on and build something els is probably the best thing you can do for a product or company.



Juan



--

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:53 pm Post subject: CENSORSHIP

Sorry if something I wrote confused you, Gig.



 From your post, I cannot tell exactly what you were referring to, but let 

me take this opportunity to clear up a possible misunderstanding:



When I said, "contributors to the Zenith Builders Analysis Group" what I 

meant was individuals who have pledged to contribute $300 each to support 

the Group's analysis project. If that was misleading, it was not 

intentionally so.



If something else was misleading, you'll have be a bit more explicit about 

what it might have been. I'd be better able to respond if I knew what you 

were referring to.



Terry



do not archive



At 03:11 PM 5/31/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sorry Terry, but it is not in my nature to let statements made that I 

believe are either false or misleading to go unanswered. Especially on a 

topic I care about.



Terry Phillips wrote:

 >  On the other hand, if we consider the 35 posts by other 

 Zenith-Listers, Gig alone accounts for 7--more than all the posts by the 

 Group contributors combined. One Zenith "friend" may be personally 

 responsible for pushing a potential Zenith customer away from Zenith's 

 door. (See Juan's message above.) As the old saying goes, "With friends 

 like that, Zenith doesn't need enemies."


	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: CENSORSHIP

Juan



Perhaps you are right. Maybe the best thing that you or I can do for Zenith 

right now is to discourage any potential builders (customers) who are 

concerned because they have heard about the 601XL accidents. Maybe. Maybe 

not. I guess that I'm not so sure. You might want to bounce that off Zenith 

and tell us what they say.



Terry



do not archive



At 06:22 PM 5/31/2008 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Terry,

Sometimes it is best to walk away from business than to try to please 

someone that will forever, bitch about your product.  I don't want to hear 

for the next decade from some guy that builds a plane and bitches how bad 

the design is.  Everyone is entitled to choices, if you don't like it, 

(the kit),  then buy another one or buy production and move on. Suggesting 

to someone that has doubts to move on and build something els is probably 

the best thing you can do for a product or company.



Juan


	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: CENSORSHIP

terry ,

be my guest, i have better things to do like go fly my 601 xl.



Juan



--

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: CENSORSHIP

terry ,

be my guest, i have better things to do like go fly my 601 xl.



Juan



--

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: CENSORSHIP

If you feel compelled to do so, then you should do so. But I don't believe that you feel this way. Both side of this silly topic need to step back and think, we all have opinions. This is a forum to discuss those opinions related to Zenith as well as the passion for flying and building your own Zenith, and additionally and most importantly to helping others to build and fly there own Zenith. I believe it states "all things Zenith" some were on this list, well the there ya go. 

Sarcasm will never enable a solution to a dispute, it WILL always deepen the opposing trenches..



Kevin



Do Not Archive



 	  Terry Phillips wrote: 	
		  Juan



Perhaps you are right. Maybe the best thing that you or I can do for Zenith 

right now is to discourage any potential builders (customers) who are 

concerned because they have heard about the 601XL accidents. 



Terry



do not archive



At 06:22 PM 5/31/2008 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Terry,

Sometimes it is best to walk away from business than to try to please 

someone that will forever, bitch about your product.  I don't want to hear 

for the next decade from some guy that builds a plane and bitches how bad 

the design is.  Everyone is entitled to choices, if you don't like it, 

(the kit),  then buy another one or buy production and move on. Suggesting 

to someone that has doubts to move on and build something els is probably 

the best thing you can do for a product or company.



Juan



	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: CENSORSHIP

No Dave, we all are just and only waiting for a  professional  result of invetigation,  name it Factory, FAA or any international office,  or the Zbag  group analisis (I realy hope they get close to reality, I realy like it to be). 

  

All this because MYSELF (like maybe 99% of us)  know nothing about accident analisis and airplane structure calculus  other that what we have seen in the movies    

  

The idea is to keep building, or take a break, or sell  your  kit, until and IF there is a truth explanation of what is hapenning and what is needed.    

I know I will get this from ZAC,  I have a personal faith in Mr Heintz knowledge.  We chosed the Zenith airplanes after a LOT of research and this gave me faith in the designer. 

  

No Censorship needed, just plain common sence of all of us.   

  

Please Friends:  Dont get the easy idea  of the guys at the bar thring to solve the wold oil problem as experts... 

  

( I said once I will not post any more about this... Sorry,  Im human I could not resist.) 

  

Saludos 

Gary Gower. 

Yes, building a 601 XL. Working on the fuselage,  tail feathers done. 

Do not archive.



--- On Sat, 5/31/08, Dave G. <d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:

 [quote]From: Dave G. <d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico.ca>

Subject: Re: CENSORSHIP

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, May 31, 2008, 3:10 PM



    I've only seen a couple of irrational rants, your's is one of them. A lot of what you learned in flight training had to do with managing risk, assessing risk, avoiding risk. In the face of a number of incidents, some dedicated XL owners have decided to try to get some additional info. Others are asking for additional info. 

  

 I'm curious why your solution is to simply deny the possibility. Censorship? Be real careful what you wish for. 

  

  

 [quote] ---

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