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dkbrooks(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: Censorship, split lists, "bad-mouthing competitors", etc. - |
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All -
I would like to offer my non-Zenith owner/builder perspective on this whole mess.
First, a little about me: I have been a subscriber to mailing list for almost a year now (7/10/2007 was the first Zenith list e-mail in my in-box - yes, I save them all in an archive) and I have marveled at all the incredibly knowledgeable, smart, creative, generous and impossibly patient and meticulous people who contribute here on a regular basis. I am also a member of the RANS yahoo group and while they are an equally wonderful group of people, they are kit builders and flyers (for the most part) and aren't nearly as involved in their aircraft construction and design. I think if you search the archives you will find that I haven't contributed a single bit of useful airplane information to this group - my only queries have been about fuel systems in general (I am constantly building/busting/rebulding a track car).
I started subscribing to this list when I first saw a video of the 701 take off in 150 feet (I didn't know about a 701-specific list at the time). I have a dream of building my own plane at some point and the 701 was (and is) still at the top of my list of candidates (the RANS S7 and 601XL are tied for second).
So why do I subscribe to this list? And why would I read every single message posted to this list - accident related included? And most importantly, why would I care at all about this continuing bickering about who should post what?
All good questions. What I get out of this list is the following (in no particular order):
- A constant amazement at the skills and knowledge of you scratch builders out there. I can't possibly describe how much I admire what you do. It is incredible. It is way better than anything on TV.
- I learn something new every single day from reading this list. Some of it is immediately useful (metal working ideas, clever solutions to tricky problems, etc.), some of it will be useful in the near future when I finally get my butt back up in an airplane (in-depth discussions about aircraft and avionic systems, tips and suggestions for flying techniques), and some of it will probably never be directly useful (solving cooling problems with a particular motor/cowl combination, causes and structural remediation of flutter in airfoil design). But even the stuff I will never use is immensely interesting.
- A constant reminder of what I am missing by not flying regularly (long story) and some sense of being a part of the flying community that I miss so badly.
My take on the discussions of the accidents is that I think they contribute positively. There is some argument that these posts are driving people away from the 601 and Zenith aircraft but I feel just the opposite. I _like_ the fact that there is a group of smart builders out there that are constantly taking look at what is going on. I _like_ the idea that the design of the plane, the construction techniques & materials are all under constant scrutiny and improvement. I would feel much less certain about an aircraft if nobody ever talked about anything that might be wrong or could (possibly) need improvement or fixing. I personally think it would be appropriate to have these discussions if there was only one accident.
Do I believe that there is something "wrong" with the design? I have no idea. I am a software engineer. I am a bit of a physics geek and I can follow the discussions but I am woefully unqualified to express an opinion. Would I fly in a 601 tomorrow if the offer came up? Oh, yes. Sort of. Depends more on the pilot than the plane - I wouldn't fly in a 182 if I thought the pilot was a yank-and-bank hot shot who flew beyond his aircraft's or his own personal limits. But I never pass up an opportunity to go fly and would jump in to the right seat of a 601 in a heartbeat. Honest. Try me. I'll buy the gas. 
So now to the important (to you) part: Why should you care if I get anything out of this list? Why do I think it is a really, really bad idea to only allow builders to subscribe as was suggested today? This list is the primary reason I am even considering the 601XL as the plane for me. I love this list and I would never have considered the 601 or scratch building before I started reading about what all of you do and the kind of support I could find here. I am also more inclined to build a plane when I know that there is a community of smart people constantly involved in the analysis and improvement of the design.
The long and the short of it is this: I don't currently own a 601XL nor am I building one - but I may very well become one because of this list, and in particular because the people most intimately involved with the plane are willing to discuss the good and the (potentially) bad in an open and honest forum. This list, complete with the back and forth discussions of potential problems, is the best advertising the 601XL could possibly get. If there are competitors here that are trying to drive business away then let the discussions, the facts and the ultimate conclusions speak for themselves. (Lest you think I am "one of those people", you can contact me directly at dkbrooks(at)gmail.com (dkbrooks(at)gmail.com).)
And please don't boot non-builders off this list. I don't know what I would do with my lunch breaks without it.
Dave
(Do not archive.)
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| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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kmccune
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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leinad
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Central Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Censorship, split lists, |
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Dave,
The only thing I differ with you on is that unlike you I am a 601XL builder. I say, let the ideas fly! From my experience many of the folks that are builders have more than a little engineering savvy. And I'm speaking as someone that has worked as both a mechanical engineer and now as a software engineer. On the part of some, there seams to be a lack of respect for the qualifications of the builders to discuss design issues, and an almost religious faith in the designer. With only a few exceptions I rarely see anyone jumping to conclusions (as is claimed), but there is free discussions of the possibilities. Among the few conclusions that are jumped to is the idea that there is nothing wrong with the design. Right now I think the evidence on that matter is mixed. I for one am open to the possibility that there is a design flaw. I'm also opened to the possibility that all the wing folding accidents can be explained by the mistreatment of the airframes. I wish I were confident that the NTSB would issue its final report soon, and that the report be conclusive. I'm not.
I have a tip for those who want to choose which topics they read. Long ago I stopped receiving these posts as email. Instead I visit the Matronix web sight and browse the post and read just the ones I find interesting (which is most). Anyway for me, it's been a better way of filtering what I read.
Dan
601XL/Corvair Plans builder.
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine |
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kmccune
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Censorship, split lists, |
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Dan,
You bring up a point that I had not considered, regarding getting the list via email. I long ago stopped getting lists emailed to me. Just way too much info, and like you said, lots of things I didn't want to read and didn't agree with. I have only browsed this list, so I have to apologize to any that I may annoyed with my attitude regarding my out spoken blanket opinion, regarding posts that annoy you to one extreme or another.
Regards
Kevin
do not archive
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)
"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009
"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune |
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