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Pseudo-science run amok . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:30 am Post subject: Pseudo-science run amok . . .

A friend of mine turned me on to what must be a relatively

new phenomenon running through the ranks of the poorly

educated, easily scammed members of society.



Do a Google search on "HHO Gas" and/or "Browns Gas" and

watch what pops up. Do the same search on Ebay and see

how many different products are being offered (and

unfortunately . . . purchased) to individuals believing

that this simple 7th grade science experiment offers

relief from high gas prices.



There's an important law of thermodynamics (2nd I think)

that states that energy is never created, only transformed.

Further, any transformation is never 100% efficient.

So the process of breaking water into it's constituent

gaseous components takes more energy to accomplish than

the energy you will get back by burning those gasses later

(in your car or elsewhere).



Unfortunately for victims of poor schooling (or

inattention in good schools), a great deal of money will

change hands to the benefit of those who sell "hope".



Show this to your families and especially any kids you

know. This has to be a prime example of dishonorable

behaviors that prey on the ignorant in a world-wide

scale! Honorable skepticism is the citizen's most

effective defense from hucksters and cheats.

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: Pseudo-science run amok . . .

Two things about this, don't confuse the scams with an HHO torch which is a real thing and has nothing to do with increasing mileage or free fuel.  Second you can absolutely get more energy out of water than you put into it.  Doesn't anyone recall the Mr Fusion on the DeLorean time machine?  HA!



Do not archive this garbage that has nothing to do with the group subject matter and anyone in their right mind should know better of.



--

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Pseudo-science run amok . . .

A number of people have asked me about this hydrogen-from-water thing ("hydro-gen" means "makes water", by the way). I explain to them that water is the burnt ashes of chemical processes and is at the lowest possible chemical energy stable state. Just because a fire and its ashes are related doesn't mean the ashes have any chemical energy left in them. Only by adding lots of energy to the water can you get anything useful back out. Nothing is going to change this--the vast oceans stand as mute witness to this fact.



Coincidentally, yesterday a friend of mine told me that diesel truckers used water injection AND acetylene. The problem with all these ideas is that engines using various fuel saving, power boosting schemes have far shorter lifetimes. This doesn't matter to the military but would matter to the public.



(Do Not Archive)

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: Pseudo-science run amok . . .

At 11:10 AM 6/5/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



A number of people have asked me about this hydrogen-from-water thing 

("hydro-gen" means "makes water", by the way). I explain to them that 

water is the burnt ashes of chemical processes and is at the lowest 

possible chemical energy stable state. Just because a fire and its ashes 

are related doesn't mean the ashes have any chemical energy left in them. 

Only by adding lots of energy to the water can you get anything useful 

back out. Nothing is going to change this--the vast oceans stand as mute 

witness to this fact.



Coincidentally, yesterday a friend of mine told me that diesel truckers 

used water injection AND acetylene. The problem with all these ideas is 

that engines using various fuel saving, power boosting schemes have far 

shorter lifetimes. This doesn't matter to the military but would matter to 

the public.


	


   Good point. Another oft ignored feature of "alternative"

   technologies is big-picture economics. Some colleagues

   of mine at Lear did a study on water-alcohol injection for

   carbureted engines with the idea of being able to run

   mo-gas in 100 octane engines by using injection at low-

   altitude full throttle conditions and limiting

   manifold pressures for remainder of flight (most of

   which is at altitude). The idea being that a 100

   octane engine running full throttle at altitude can't

   really use all that the fuel has to offer.



   After running all the numbers on the full envelope

   of flight scenarios (including extended forced operations

   at low altitude) it was determined that the amount

   of mixture to be carried combined with weight and

   volume of installed hardware painted an un-attractive

   big-picture image.



   This study didn't even touch on the effects of

   large differences in lead between 100LL and

   mo-gas.



   It's easy to get sucked into the vortex of excitement

   that surrounds some ideas. I'll suggest that 90+

   percent of ideas enshrined in the patent office have

   no useful place in an attractive big-picture. Only

   after the idea finds useful application in a repeated

   recipe for success is it time to reach for the credit

   card.



   Bob . . .

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: Pseudo-science run amok . . .

Haven't heard of the acetylene injection before but propane injection in diesels is common and the equivalent of NOS in gas engines.  Water injection is for the same reasons as aircraft engines, anti-knock and cooling with a side effect of reducing NOX emissions which is the big problem with diesels.



Do not archive



--

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: Pseudo-science run amok . . .

Well funny that 'cus a friend of a friend..has another friend who swears that by using battery current make hydrogen from a water sample and then sucking the resulant gas into the carb intake he's like getting 60mpg from his Subaru station wagon..he was waxing enthusiastically about this and of course now everyone at our table wanted to try this out.



When I suggested that "it just doesn't add up"...using the exact argument below I was of course told I was just a party pooper and it MUST work right?



Hmm...but the numbers don't add up..If they did, then why not remove the gasoline altogether and run the entire engine on water and just use the "spare" little bit of current it would take to turn water into wine...I mean into hydrogen.



I told them I was highly scptical..



Frank



--

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: Pseudo-science run amok . . .

Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Well funny that 'cus a friend of a friend..has another friend who swears that by using battery current make hydrogen from a water sample and then sucking the resulant gas into the carb intake he's like getting 60mpg from his Subaru station wagon..he was waxing enthusiastically about this and of course now everyone at our table wanted to try this out.



 When I suggested that "it just doesn't add up"...using the exact argument below I was of course told I was just a party pooper and it MUST work right?



 Hmm...but the numbers don't add up..If they did, then why not remove the gasoline altogether and run the entire engine on water and just use the "spare" little bit of current it would take to turn water into wine...I mean into hydrogen.



 I told them I was highly scptical..



 Frank

   

The last time fuel prices were bumping their way up, there were two big 
	


rages.  On was to put a magnet on the fuel line just before the 

carbeurator (supposed to align the molecules and make them burn 

straight).  Some schools systems bought into the idea around here.  

Never heard much more about it.



The other was a plug of platinum in the fuel line.  Tiny amounts of 

platinum cause the fuel to burn closer to completion was the claim.  

Heh, platinum is used in the catalytic converter, why not just move that 

into the combustion chamber.  That idea quietly fell by the wayside also.



Adding hydrogen or propane actually does have some merit in some older 

installations, but not for any of the magical handwaving reasons usually 

given.  The fact is that these compounds ignite easily, and for years 

the typical car was so poorly tuned that ANYTHING would improve the 

combustion process.  Trying to tell the people that a $100 tune-up would 

do more good is just a waste of breath.  Highly compromised intake 

systems would also cause mixture problems.  The advent of computer 

controls, fuel injection, and ignition systems that are self adjusting 

has obliterated the usefulness of such measures.



I point this out, because most airplane engines don't take advantage of 

modern technology to improve the combustion process.  Consider the trick 

of slight closing the throttle, so that the plate will increase 

turbulence and improve the mixture distribution on some Lycomings.  A 

propane injection system could <possibly/probably/maybe not> be a 

solution that would equalize the combustion events across pistons, while 

still providing full power, or allow the engine to run leaner.

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: Pseudo-science run amok . . .

Heck, I've got so many of those energy saving and creating devices on my plane that I have to stop every 300 miles or so and drain the excess fuel from my tanks.



Chuck Jensen

--

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: Pseudo-science run amok . . .

Chuck, you need to have your spark plug electrodes ground to a "custom airfoil shape."  Then you'll become a true petroleum exporter 



Bill B



On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Chuck Jensen <cjensen(at)dts9000.com (cjensen(at)dts9000.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com (cjensen(at)dts9000.com)>

  

 Heck, I've got so many of those energy saving and creating devices on my plane that I have to stop every 300 miles or so and drain the excess fuel from my tanks.

 

 Chuck Jensen

 

 

[b]

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Pseudo-science run amok . . .

My Infiniti J30t had so little CO in the exhaust that you couldn't commit suicide with it.



Recently, after a lot of Internet study, I changed my 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee paper air filter to a K&N high-flow metal air filter. As reported on the Internet, and SO FAR from my own brief experience, it seems to get 10% better (displayed) mileage. But it's still early in the averaging to be certain. I think an alternate-air door would do good things for most vehicles and would cost almost nothing.



There are computer chips that actually do deliver better mileage. They are about $450, so payback can take a while.



I do need to add an anti-squirrel screen. The filter air-box is filling with acorns again. My old Jeep nearly blew its engine because of acorns jammed in the throttle plate and intake valves.



[Do Not Archive]

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

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