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Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?
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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

Hi  all,

  

 I have  moved recently from the UK and brought my Kitfox Model 2 with me. In 2003 it  changed classification in the UK from GA to Microlight, which allowed me more  privileges than restrictions. I have registered it with a proper "N" number here  but there was no request for a classification, GA or Experimental, or Light  Sport that I could find. The FAA are less than helpful (surprise, surprise)  about anything to do with the Light Sport category. I have full PPL licenses in  both the US and EU if that matters.

  

 My  questions:

  

 1.  What is the classification for a Model 2 with a 582? If it's optional what is  the best?

 2. How  do I make it officially that type?

 3. I  am not the original builder but in the UK I did all of my own servicing - how  about in the US?

 4.  Does it require an Airworthiness Certificate? I assume "of course!" but doesn't  the thoroughness follow the type?

 5. How  about insurance?

  

 A more  general question - since it was a US kit built to UK requirements where can I  find minimum requirements here, such as harnesses, headsets, lights, radio, ELT,  parachute, etc, etc. It's a tough question to ask - "Please tell me what I don't  know..."

  

 Thanks  in advance,

 Bob



   [quote][b]

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

Thanks Matt - I've been a member of the EAA for many years.  I'm an American that lived in the UK for 14 years.

  

 All of the documents at the EAA or FAA websites define  requirements and limitations of Light Sport and Experimental aircraft, but don't  explain specifics and whether they are inclusive or exclusive. It appears that  the Light Sport category is tailored to the new Sport Pilot license, but I have  a full PPL. In the UK my Kitfox was clearly (and voluntarily)  classified as "microlight" and I held an NPPLM (National Private Pilot's Licence  for Microlights) and there was a clear distinction. Here there isn't much  distinction between "Experimental" and "Light Sport" other than weight  limitations and who can fly them when and where. It seems to be more of a  distinction on the pilot rather than the aircraft, or am I missing  something?

  

 BTW I went to 2 FAA offices and no one there was clear on  the situation either, they called it "too new"!

  

 Bob



   

 From: Matt Magdic 

Sent: 23 June 2008  2:45 pm

To:  

 Subject: Re: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or  Experimental or both?

 

 Bob, I'm normally  just a reader here, but your best bet is to call the EAA. They are there to help  and more than willing....

  

 Welcome to the U.S.  !

  

 Matt

   [quote][b]

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

 	  Quote: 	
		  1. What is the classification for a Model 2 with a 582? If it's optional what is the best? 

2. How do I make it officially that type? 

3. I am not the original builder but in the UK I did all of my own servicing - how about in the US? 

4. Does it require an Airworthiness Certificate? I assume "of course!" but doesn't the thoroughness follow the type? 

5. How about insurance? 	


Bob, I'll try to keep from confusing you further by putting this in common terms.



Probably all US built KItfoxes are registered as "Experimental Amateur Built".  There, so far, is no such thing as  a Kitfox "Experimental Light sport aircraft".



I do not know the rules for registering, servicing or working on an imported Kitfox.



I do know that if a Model 2 Kitfox does not have an in-flight adjustable propeller it meets the definition of a Light Sport Aircraft so you can fly it under Sport Pilot rules with your PPL and a state drivers license.



You do not need a current medical certificate but if you ever fail a FAA medical exam you must get that resolved before you can fly under sport pilot rules again.



Insurance is not required but is available if you want/need it.



Don't try to find any logic in the above.  Logic was not a consideration in establishing these rules.



Here's what I do.

I fly my kitfox with a PPL under sport pilot rules.  I have not taken an FAA medical exam since mine expired six years ago.



Anyone can service or work on my Kitfox.  The only signature required ever for anything in the aircraft log book is for the annual condition inspection.  That must be signed by the original builder with a repairman's certificate (me) or a minimum A&P mechanic.



I am a low time tail wheel pilot insured through AIG.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

Thanks Tom - but to carry the topic a bit further...



According to kitfoxaircraft.com (http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/FAQ.htm#2)

the Kitfox "qualifies for Light Sport Aircraft" but as you say the only

reason to call it Light Sport seems to be to fly it as a Sport Pilot, which

allows you to skip a medical. I have a full PPL and continue to keep my

medical certificate up-to-date, so I suppose Experimental is the proper

designation for my Kitfox, although that choice wasn't available when I

applied for my N-number registration. According to the online FAA database

for my Kitfox it says "Type Registration = Individual".



In the Airworthiness Certificate data field it says "none", which is true

because I have not had that done and don't know if I need to. Below you say

that Experimentals only need an "annual condition inspection" logbook entry,

but the FAA doesn't know my aircraft is Experimental unless that goes with

the Type and Model which are recorded as

Model  		DENNEY KITFOX MK2  

Type Aircraft	Fixed Wing Single-Engine 



Should I be looking for an A&P mechanic to sign my logbook or the local FAA

Airworthiness inspector? Either way it's good to have a second opinion

before returning to the air.



--

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

A private pilot can fly a lsa airplane. A sport pilot can fly  ANYTHING that meets the guidelines for a light sport plane. I can only think of  one advantage in certifying EAB. That would be in flight adj prop. It would have  to be removed before a sport pilot could legally fly it.  Am I on the right  page here?  I don't think it really matters how it's certified.  Steve  Bennett  Classic 4 1200 912ul. 



Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

  [quote][b]

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

 	  matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: 	
		  Thanks Tom - but to carry the topic a bit further...



According to kitfoxaircraft.com (http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/FAQ.htm#2)

the Kitfox "qualifies for Light Sport Aircraft" but as you say the only

reason to call it Light Sport seems to be to fly it as a Sport Pilot, which

allows you to skip a medical. I have a full PPL and continue to keep my

medical certificate up-to-date, so I suppose Experimental is the proper

designation for my Kitfox, although that choice wasn't available when I

applied for my N-number registration. According to the online FAA database

for my Kitfox it says "Type Registration = Individual".



In the Airworthiness Certificate data field it says "none", which is true

because I have not had that done and don't know if I need to. Below you say

that Experimentals only need an "annual condition inspection" logbook entry,

but the FAA doesn't know my aircraft is Experimental unless that goes with

the Type and Model which are recorded as

Model  		DENNEY KITFOX MK2  

Type Aircraft	Fixed Wing Single-Engine 



Should I be looking for an A&P mechanic to sign my logbook or the local FAA

Airworthiness inspector? Either way it's good to have a second opinion

before returning to the air.

-- 	




Bob, I avoided the status of the imported kitfox on purpose because I looked at the FAA website concering that and got overwelmed in a hurry.  I will only confuse you further trying to interpret FAA mumbo jumbo.



Here's what I think not what I know and is only my opinion.



I think what you have now is an N number registration.  You also need to "Certificate" the airplane.



I did some web searching and ran accross several articles about importing to US from Canada but no specifics about importing from the UK.  I would talk to my local FSDO and explain that you want to "Certificate" a kitfox that was imported from the UK.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

Tell me about the word "imported" and the FAA!! I didn't fly at all last

year because it took me the better part of a year to convince the FAA I

hadn't bought the Kitfox from the UK and imported it, but that I *owned* it

in the UK and moved here with it. They said they didn't have a form for

that, that they needed a bill of sale! They *finally* agreed to the CAA

de-registration original form and a notarized affidavit from me stating that

I owned the aircraft *before* I brought it here. 



Hence why I am reluctant to contact the FAA as to the nature of the

now-valid registration, ie Experimental or Light Sport or what.



A search of the word "Certificate" on the FAA website only returns

"Registration Certificate", which I have, and "Airworthiness Certificate",

which I'm not sure that I need, for an actual aircraft. Other certificates

are Airman, A&P, Medical, etc, but not a single occurrence of the word

"certificate" as a verb.



I've been to the Harrisburg FSDO several times - no one there knows of can

find out. Also spoke to the CMO (Certificate Management Office) in Colorado,

again no real answers.



Bob



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

This http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8130-6d.pdf appears to be the

Airworthiness Certificate form that allows type designation as Experimental

or Light Sport, although I haven't completed one yet or decided how to

apply.



Bob Brennan

1991 Model 2 Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop 

Wrightsville Pa



--

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

 	  matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: 	
		  This http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8130-6d.pdf appears to be the

Airworthiness Certificate form that allows type designation as Experimental

or Light Sport, although I haven't completed one yet or decided how to

apply.



Bob Brennan

1991 Model 2 Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop 

Wrightsville Pa



-- 	




Bob, attached is part of a document explaining importing aircraft I copied off the AOPA web site.  If I understand what I read, your kitfox may be eligible for US Experimental amateur built airwortheness certificate based on it having previously been issued a certificate in the UK.  You will need to havre it inspected by the FAA or a DAR (Designated Airworthness Representitive).



Do you have access to a list of DARs near you?  Contacting one may be a good idea.  They may know how to jump through the hoops already.



For what its worth.  I am retired from working 30+ years for the US Government.  I found early on in my career that the only way to get results from bureaucrats is what the military calls completed staff work.  You have to know what needs doing and do most of it yourself and give them the finished paperwork for approval, or at least tell them what forms need to be filled out and where they can find them.  In other words, you have to know more about the subject than they do.



Look this document over and chew on it for awhile then get ahold of a DAR that is ready to tackle it.  Good Luck!

Establishing Airworthiness for Non.doc

Description:

Download

Filename:

Establishing Airworthiness for Non.doc

Filesize:

45.5 KB

Downloaded:

10460 Time(s)

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

 	  matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: 	
		  This http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8130-6d.pdf appears to be the

Airworthiness Certificate form that allows type designation as Experimental

or Light Sport, although I haven't completed one yet or decided how to

apply.



Bob Brennan

1991 Model 2 Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop 

Wrightsville Pa



-- 	




Bob, attached is part of a document explaining importing aircraft I copied off the AOPA web site.  If I understand what I read, your kitfox may be eligible for US Experimental amateur built airwortheness certificate based on it having previously been issued a certificate in the UK.  You will need to havre it inspected by the FAA or a DAR (Designated Airworthness Representitive).



Do you have access to a list of DARs near you?  Contacting one may be a good idea.  They may know how to jump through the hoops already.



For what its worth.  I am retired from working 30+ years for the US Government.  I found early on in my career that the only way to get results from bureaucrats is what the military calls completed staff work.  You have to know what needs doing and do most of it yourself and give them the finished paperwork for approval, or at least tell them what forms need to be filled out and where they can find them.  In other words, you have to know more about the subject than they do.



Look this document over and chew on it for awhile then get ahold of a DAR that is ready to tackle it.  Good Luck!

Establishing Airworthiness for Non.doc

Description:

Download

Filename:

Establishing Airworthiness for Non.doc

Filesize:

45.5 KB

Downloaded:

774 Time(s)

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Jim Shumaker

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 106

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

Steve 

  

Each of your three staements is incomplete and best and blatently false if taken as a true false test. 

  

A private pilot can NOT fly a Trike or a Powered Parachute without instruction and signoff.  One of our listers died trying so I am a bit serious about  this being understood. 

  

Likewise, a sport pilot can Not fly the whole range of light sport without checkouts in each type. 

  

Once any aircraft has had an adjustable prop on it, there is no changing the registration to a Light sport,  thus a sport pilot would not be legal to fly it. 

  

Sorry to be so picky but the Light Sport license gives flying privedges for less training and less physical (medical) but it is not so simple.  There are more extremely different types of aircraft in the light sport catagory than there are in the general aviation catagory.  The control inputs for a Trike are the opposite of that for a stick and rudder plane and a powered parachute has a whole different set of control inputs than either. 

  

So deciding how to register an aircraft requires may considerations that are specific to the aircraft its history, conformance and potential and then the same has to be asked of the pilot; history, conformance and potential.  The EAA had an article that listed the process for making the decision.   

  

Jim Shumaker 



 ---

_________________
Jim Shumaker

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:05 am Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

Thanks Tom, that is the document I found on the FAA website and the one that

answers my original question(s). I plan to apply as Experimental since I

have no restrictions on my PPL or Medical Certificate, although it still

confuses me that the aircraft certificate should be determined by pilot

limitations and/or abilities and not aircraft's.



Bob Brennan

1991 Model 2 Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop 

Wrightsville Pa



--

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

 	  matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: 	
		  Thanks Tom, that is the document I found on the FAA website and the one that

answers my original question(s). I plan to apply as Experimental since I

have no restrictions on my PPL or Medical Certificate, although it still

confuses me that the aircraft certificate should be determined by pilot

limitations and/or abilities and not aircraft's.



Bob Brennan

1991 Model 2 Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop 

Wrightsville Pa



-- 	




Yes Bob, it does get very confusing.  The aircraft certificate is not determined by the pilot limitations.



Any aircraft can be flow by a pilot that meets the "Sport Pilot Rules" if that aircraft meets the "Definition" of a "Light Sport Aircraft"  regardless of  what Certificate that Aircraft  has.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

dcsfoto

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 120

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

wow what  fun    My Kitfox 7 is " Experimental Liglt Sport"

Got my N number prior to the original Jan 31 08 deadline.



Import Aircraft are new aircraft manufactured outside the US to a US FAA TCDS

example Falcon 900EX coming to the US the first time,it arrives with a French DGAC issued Export Certificate of Airworthiness.



a Kitfox 2 only needs proof that it meets experimental amateur built requirements and make application to FAA to certificate it.



contact me offline if you need help



David  FAA DAR

Kitfox 3 and 7

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

I believe the EAA website has a link to DAR's in all areas of the  

country.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/538 hrs





On Jun 23, 2008, at 9:59 PM, Tom Jones wrote:

You will need to havre it inspected by the FAA or a DAR (Designated  

Airworthness Representitive).

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Do you have access to a list of DARs near you?  Contacting one may  

 be a good idea.  They may know how to jump through the hoops already.



 For what its worth.  I am retired from working 30+ years for the US  

 Government.  I found early on in my career that the only way to get  

 results from bureaucrats is what the military calls completed staff  

 work.  You have to know what needs doing and do most of it yourself  

 and give them the finished paperwork for approval, or at least tell  

 them what forms need to be filled out and where they can find  

 them.  In other words, you have to know more about the subject than  

 they do.



 Look this document over and chew on it for awhile then get ahold of  

 a DAR that is ready to tackle it.  Good Luck!



 --------

 Tom Jones

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

rick(at)5mike3.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

Hi David,

I saw this thread and figured I should ask the question...

I have a Kitfox IV with a rotax 912.

I'm about 50% done with; about to paint.

Is there anything special involved in getting an N-number?

It would be nice to be light sport but I was just planning to apply for 

experimental (amature built).



Thanks Rick.



---

dcsfoto

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 120

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

to late, needed N reg by jan 31 08.

when you get certificated at the end of phase I, you will need to make a log entry declaring a max or gross weight, make sure it is not above 1320 lbs

on wheels. I think a IV is 1200 max



David

rick(at)5mike3.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

That's too late for "Light Sport"... right?

Or does this Jan 31st date affect registration of "Experimental amature 

built" as well?



--Rick, Kitfox IV/ 912UL 50%



---

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

Rick,



You can reserve an available N-number online for $10 at

http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/aircraft_certification/aircraft_reg

istry/n_numbers/, find more info at http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/.



Bob Brennan

1991 Model 2 Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop 

Wrightsville Pa



--

rick(at)5mike3.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: Kitfox Model II - Light Sport or Experimental or both?

Thanks for the info Bob!

I should probably do this now.



Rick, Kitfox IV/ 912ul 50%

---

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