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Alternator Warranty Data Point - Rebuilt vs. New

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bobf(at)feldtman.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: Alternator Warranty Data Point - Rebuilt vs. New

Bob - you bring up an interesting point - what is the best way (from an aicraft electrical standpoint) to "wash" an engine. Different A&Ps recommend different soaps, detergents, ways etc. I once lost a GM alternator on a truck when it was "Steam cleaned" - and the alternator did go out at an inopportune time. Obviously don't squirt anything into the alternator, but what about for all the other wires etc? I've never seen that addressed on the forum as to the best and safest way to clean up under the cowl!

   

 thanks

  

 bobf

 125GS LOM powered Glastar



 

 On 6/19/08, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net (nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net)> wrote: [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net (nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net)>

 

At 10:07 PM 6/18/2008 -0500, you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Just a data point I thought might be interesting.   I recently had the opportunity to review warranty rates on several of the major rotating electrical rebuilders for alternator warranty returns through autopart stores.  Low number was 9.6% and high was 18%.  This includes wholesale as well as retail sales with no data as to specific cause.  The manufacturers all report "true" warranty rates at 5%- 8% on product tested after it was returned.   Warranty on New Alternators was running 5.6% so they were substantially better.  No numbers on the "true" rates for New product but I would think it about 3%.  These numbers are very much in line with historical rates we saw several years ago.  Also should note that warranty rates do vary considerably by specific application and these numbers apply to the category and not a particular unit.

 

It is interesting that while the technology involved in the rebuilding and testing processes has improved over the past few years, the actual return rates have not reflected the benefits of better processes.   ( I attribute that to "trial and error" troubleshooting on the retail side.)

 

I would interpret this to say that if you are using an automotive alternator, the odds of a failure in the first few hours of operation are about double for rebuilt versus new and 1 bad rebuilt unit out of every 10-15 should be a normal expectation.  For our purposes,&.. buy new if you can.

 

It would be very interesting to know what the return rate and actual failure rate is on B&C units after they have done all the extra tuning, balancing, etc.  Maybe Bob could get that number for comparison?

	
 

  I don't know that B&C keeps detailed records on such things

  and I'm not personally cognizant of their field experience

  over the last 6-8 years. But while I was working directly

  with and for B&C (during the production of first 2000

   or so alternators) I can say that I witnessed an exceedingly

  low return rate. Probably on the order of 1% per year for

  the FLEET of fielded product. I can also state that the

  majority if not all returns were for installation or maintenance

   induced damage. We replaced a number of b-lead studs

  that were burned off due to loosened nuts. I recall one

  alternator that needed new bearings . . . seems the guy

  liked to wash his engine often with high-pressure, soap

   laden water.



  I never saw a brush failure or rectifier failure or

  an opening of a joint either electrical or mechanical.

  Of course this begs the question of just what warranty

  is either implied or stated in writing. If one does

   a Google search on the B&C website for the word "warranty"

  you get one hit at:



http://www.bandc.biz/SYSTEM_DIAGRAMS.html

 

  An this use of the word speaks only to reader's

  options to adopt the design goals of any of the

  electrical system architectures posted.



  I worked 12 years running in the OSH booth for

  B&C. A common question I fielded from attendees

   was "what's the warranty on this stuff?". I could

  confidently answer, "Our warranty is no unhappy

  customers. If you have an issue with a B&C

  product, you call this guy over here (pointing

   to Bill). If he doesn't take care of your

  needs, you call me and I'll drive up to Newton

  and find out what his problem is!"



  The answer to your question does not stand simply

  on consideration of "rebuilt" versus "new". It

   cannot be divined from the study of published

  warranty return numbers. The return on investment

  for the user of any product  starts with efficient

  and robust satisfaction of design goals supported

  by a sense of craftsmanship and customer service

   from the time the first parts are assembled until

  the customer is finished with the product and is

  satisfied with the demonstrated service life.



  In B&C's case, they start with a robust component

   with a exemplary, demonstrated service life in

  the field. They do only that which is necessary to

  make that product fit the legacy design goals for

  aircraft electrical system performance and control.

  Finally, they stand behind their stated warranty

   policy.



  This isn't a numbers game, it's a say what you do,

  do what you say game. In B&C's case up until 2000

  or so, they said "no unhappy customers" and I believed

  that because it was my job to help deliver to that

   statement. I have no reason to believe that either

  statement or policy has changed since that time.



  I've worked in this industry for virtually all of

  my professional career . . . and even in 'retirement'

   my major cash flow comes from aviation. If I had

  a major disappointment to share with you, it was

  the huge shift from a satisfied, loyal customer

  game to a numbers game. Our highest institutions

  of learning have discovered ways to analyze the

   hell out of any constellation of processes and

  to chart the results in living color. Other

  departments in those same institutions have neglected

  to teach their students that those analysis techniques

  are useful tools to help you fine tune performance

   but must be applied and interpreted carefully so

  as to avoid obscuring facts.



  I have seen a warranty returns investigation that

  was ultimately "resolved" by cutting the warranty

  period from two down to one year. The bleeding fell by

   90%. The change of one word on a piece of paper

  saved the company about a quarter million a year!

  An the warranty return numbers for that device

  jumped dramatically . . . and some bureaucrat

  got to take credit for it.

 

  This same industry drives design decisions based on

  so-called reliability studies. We get out the

  holy-watered documents that tell us how to predict

  the failure rates of components used in electronics.

   We enter all the components into this big computer

  model and crunch the numbers to see what number

  falls out for predicted mean time between failure

  (MTBF). My customers live and die on MTBF numbers.



   Sitting in a conference room last year I had to

  struggle to keep a straight face when our customer's

  purchase specification called for a 20,000 hour

  MTBF on our proposed product. The byproduct of these

   numbers games is almost total BS. After ten years

  of production on the finished product, it is

  axiomatic that we will have made numerous repairs

  to fielded systems for a combination of reasons

  not limited to design error, manufacturing error,

   installation error, maintenance error, operating

  error or conditions that were never anticipated

  in the original design . . . and NONE of those

  systems will have been in service for 20,000

  hours!

 

  Nonetheless, somebody will massage and tweak the

  so-called  MTBF "study" until the computer model

  coughs out the desired number whereupon our customer

  smiles and signs the check that purchases a few

   million dollars worth of this "golden product".

  The global warming cult has applied computer

  modeling tools to their particular social engineering

  goals with great success.



  As consumers, our faith in such numbers needs to

   be tempered with understanding of how they were

  generated. The warranty return rate for brand

  X may appear a whole lot better than brand Y simply

  because brand X has a 90 day warranty and brand

  Y has a 1 year warranty.

 

  Further, their numbers may or may not reflect

  returns based on careful analysis of manufacturer's

  culpability. I can say that all the returns on

  B&C alternators I witnessed were for installation

   or maintenance induced failures but we fixed them

  under warranty anyhow . . . not because the product

  failed to meet performance expectations but because

  the warranty was "no unhappy customers".

 

  The true answer to your question comes from the

  search for an unhappy B&C customer. I've heard

  many a tale from guys who heard that a second

  cousin of their friend thought B&C and or

  AeroElectric Connection stuff was junk. But even

   after offering cash rewards for these unhappy

  customers to step forward and at least get their

  money back, silence from the=====

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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: Alternator Warranty Data Point - Rebuilt vs. New

Good Morning Bob,

  

 Different Bob here, but I never do any cleaning within my cowl other than  wiping with a rag. On the very rare and unlikely occasion when a small bit of  grime gets in a difficult corner, I will use a small paint brush moistened with  mineral spirits to loosen things up. 

  

 Other than that, it is a rag only. 

  

 That rag may or may not be moistened with mineral spirits or another  appropriate cleaner.

  

 Works for me!

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

628 West  86th Street

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8502 

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

  

  In a message dated 6/19/2008 11:00:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  bobf(at)feldtman.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Bob - you bring up an interesting point - what is the best way (from an    aicraft electrical standpoint) to "wash" an engine. Different A&Ps    recommend different soaps, detergents, ways etc. I once lost a GM alternator    on a truck when it was "Steam cleaned" - and the alternator did go out at an    inopportune time. Obviously don't squirt anything into the alternator, but    what about for all the other wires etc? I've never seen that addressed on the    forum as to the best and safest way to clean up under the cowl!

    

   thanks

    

   bobf

   125GS LOM powered  Glastar

	






Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

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