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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: IFR GPS |
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I posed the question of what's needed for LEGAL IFR operation, and this
was the reply I got. He lives in the certified airplane world but .......
The unit must be certified under either TSO-c129 or TSO-c146, be
installed in the aircraft, and be approved in that aircraft on a 337 via either
STC or field approval (if no STC for that aircraft exists). No TSO, no IFR
approval.
Since I'm planning on using the Odyssee
(http://www.mglavionics.com/html/odyssey.html) glass panel with it's
built-in WAAS capableGPS with RAIM ....... there's no TSO. Those of you
with glass panels that fly IFR with a built-in GPS ....... did you use a
certified GPS as backupor wing it ..... pun intended  .
Linn
so not archive
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wdleonard(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: IFR GPS |
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Linn,
The TSO is not required for us, neither is an STC obviously. BUT! the unit MUST function to all the standards of the TSO. That includes not just RAIM but also the way the approaches and waypoints are handled and presented, and sequenced. My guess is that the Odyssey would not meet those standards. You may be able to make an argument that it does meet the standards for and en-route IFR GPS and then you could use it to substitute for DME and flying point to point - but you would have to document how you verified that it met the standards for en-route IFR GPS. You also have to be sure that the database points for the DME on LOC approaches are the same points used in the certified units (ie.. DME to the LOC and not the 'airport' etc).
But really, if you want to fly precision GPS approaches don't mess around and just get a certified unit. Or save the $$ and just get a nav with LOC/GS. That will cost a lot less and get you in to almost anywhere. Think about how often you are really going to need/want to fly approaches to the lower WAAS minimums. Sometimes, but very very rarely.
JMHO
--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:32 PM, linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net (pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV-List message posted by: linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net (pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net)>
I posed the question of what's needed for LEGAL IFR operation, and this was the reply I got. He lives in the certified airplane world but .......
The unit must be certified under either TSO-c129 or TSO-c146, be
installed in the aircraft, and be approved in that aircraft on a 337 via either
STC or field approval (if no STC for that aircraft exists). No TSO, no IFR
approval.
Since I'm planning on using the Odyssee (http://www.mglavionics.com/html/odyssey.html) glass panel with it's built-in WAAS capableGPS with RAIM ....... there's no TSO. Those of you with glass panels that fly IFR with a built-in GPS ....... did you use a certified GPS as backupor wing it ..... pun intended .
[quote][b]
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pbesing(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: IFR GPS |
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Great post, David. GPS is great, but we've been fine without it for a long time. My RV-4 is IFR and has a Garmin 396 for my basic VFR nav, and IFR backup for situational awareness. I still like flying needles better than lines. But the VFR GPS makes a GREAT aid to situational awareness, plus terrain, obstacles, XM radio, WX, etc.
Paul Besing
---
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:19 am Post subject: IFR GPS |
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Thanks to everyone that replied for their answers. I'm aware of the differences between Certificated and Experimentals, and was hoping for some factual insight. I had not thought of being ramp checked as a possibility since (in my experience) the FAA only was concerned about paperwork, and not the way the airplane was equipped. Polling the FSDOs (again, in my experience) is a waste of time since they'll only direct you to the FARs and nobody is going to put their butt in a sling by giving a written opinion. ..... And David's post pointed out that the regs are totally outdated. My partner in the -10 flies professionally, and I'd hate to have him faced with the FAA firing squad.
All the research I've done so far points to the fact that in order to be used as a primary IFR GPS in an experimental aircraft the GPS must MEET the requirements of the TSO. I'm a retired electronics engineer, and used to reading specs. However, it seems (at least to me) that even trying to see if your GPS meets the TSO is next to impossible. Degree in GPS certification is almost certainly required ..... and I don't have that. The problem really lies in trying to get the information on the GPS that's in your hand (or mounted in the panel). The manufacturer of the glass panel GPS I'm looking at did say that their GPS meets SOME of the TSO requirements, but not all.  Didn't say what parameters are on which side. EAA was really responsive to my query (I'm sure they get a lot of the same questions over and over again) which I didn't expect.
So far, I nobody has stepped up to the plate and said 'I fly behind (insert favorite glass panel) with built-in GPS, and this is what I do. Even off list. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation.
Linn
do not archive
Paul Besing wrote: [quote] Great post, David. GPS is great, but we've been fine without it for a long time. My RV-4 is IFR and has a Garmin 396 for my basic VFR nav, and IFR backup for situational awareness. I still like flying needles better than lines. But the VFR GPS makes a GREAT aid to situational awareness, plus terrain, obstacles, XM radio, WX, etc.
Paul Besing
----- Original Message ----
From: David Leonard <wdleonard(at)gmail.com> (wdleonard(at)gmail.com)
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 3:58:33 PM
Subject: Re: IFR GPS
Linn,
The TSO is not required for us, neither is an STC obviously. BUT! the unit MUST function to all the standards of the TSO. That includes not just RAIM but also the way the approaches and waypoints are handled and presented, and sequenced. My guess is that the Odyssey would not meet those standards. You may be able to make an argument that it does meet the standards for and en-route IFR GPS and then you could use it to substitute for DME and flying point to point - but you would have to document how you verified that it met the standards for en-route IFR GPS. You also have to be sure that the database points for the DME on LOC approaches are the same points used in the certified units (ie.. DME to the LOC and not the 'airport' etc).
But really, if you want to fly precision GPS approaches don't mess around and just get a certified unit. Or save the $$ and just get a nav with LOC/GS. That will cost a lot less and get you in to almost anywhere. Think about how often you are really going to need/want to fly approaches to the lower WAAS minimums. Sometimes, but very very rarely.
JMHO
--
David Leonard
Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:32 PM, linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net (pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV-List message posted by: linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net (pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net)>
I posed the question of what's needed for LEGAL IFR operation, and this was the reply I got. He lives in the certified airplane world but ......
The unit must be certified under either TSO-c129 or TSO-c146, be
installed in the aircraft, and be approved in that aircraft on a 337 via either
STC or field approval (if no STC for that aircraft exists). No TSO, no IFR
approval.
Since I'm planning on using the Odyssee (http://www.mglavionics.com/html/odyssey.html) glass panel with it's built-in WAAS capableGPS with RAIM ....... there's no TSO. Those of you with glass panels that fly IFR with a built-in GPS ....... did you use a certified GPS as backupor wing it .... pun intended .
| Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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ronlee(at)pcisys.net
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: IFR GPS |
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If you want to do it right, find a system that is TSOd.
Ron Lee
[quote][b]
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: IFR GPS |
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Ron Lee wrote: | Quote: | If you want to do it right, find a system that is TSOd.
Ron Lee
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That does seem to be the bottom line. Thee is no TSOd glass-panel system I'm aware of that doesn't cost as much as my house. July Flying has ans article on the G1000. Just an upgrade to synthetic vision will cost Diamond owners $10,000!!! And it's all software!!! So, I'll put in my Odyssey AND a stand alone TSOd GPS ..... just to do it right.
Linn
do not archive
[quote][b]
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: IFR GPS |
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Care to share what key features attracted you to the Odyssey over the
other glass panels?
I expect I will also select a stand alone IFR GPS, that hopefully will
provide data to a glass panel. Don't want to have more $$ in panel than
in airframe.
linn Walters wrote:
| Quote: | That does seem to be the bottom line. Thee is no TSOd glass-panel
system I'm aware of that doesn't cost as much as my house. July
Flying has ans article on the G1000. Just an upgrade to synthetic
vision will cost Diamond owners $10,000!!! And it's all software!!!
So, I'll put in my Odyssey AND a stand alone TSOd GPS ..... just to do
it right.
Linn
do not archive
*
*
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: IFR GPS |
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Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: |
Care to share what key features attracted you to the Odyssey over the
other glass panels?
I expect I will also select a stand alone IFR GPS, that hopefully will
provide data to a glass panel. Don't want to have more $$ in panel
than in airframe.
Cost, capability, ease of software upgrade, ease of installation, just
|
to name a few. They don't do TSOs .... only experimental to keep the
cost down. Did I mention it's huge??? Here's a screen that you don't
have to squint at!!! You can customize the screens at home with their
software, or if you know that you want something different, they'll do
it for you when you order. They have radios controlled from the panel
that can be black box or panel mount. They have an IO module that
collects all the engine data and sends it on two wires through the
firewall to the unit. Autopilot servos coming out soon. Check it out
at http://www.mglavionics.com/html/odyssey.html ( Stratomaster, US
distributor) or go to the company site at
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/. Different info. Far too many +s to list
here. I figure around $6000 for the panel and sensors ..... doesn't
include the radios or the servos (around $500 each). If you're going to
OSH, they're in hangar B space 2139 and 2140. They were at Sun-N-Fun in
the ACS booth. If Matt's there, tell him I sent ya!!! 
Linn
do not archive
| Quote: | linn Walters wrote:
> That does seem to be the bottom line. Thee is no TSOd glass-panel
> system I'm aware of that doesn't cost as much as my house. July
> Flying has ans article on the G1000. Just an upgrade to synthetic
> vision will cost Diamond owners $10,000!!! And it's all software!!!
> So, I'll put in my Odyssey AND a stand alone TSOd GPS ..... just to
> do it right.
> Linn
> do not archive
> *
> *
|
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marty_away(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: IFR GPS |
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Paul,
Not at my desk today so I don't have the FAA's TSO approved list website at my fingertips, but you can search it on the fAA.gov webpage.
TSO-129 is the GPS IFR certification.
TSO-146 is the GPS/WAAS certification for stand alone NAV radios; i.e. King KSN 770, or Garmin 430W
TSO-145 is the GPS/WAAS certification for FMS with WAAS sensors; i.e. Avidyne Entregra 900W or Garmin 900 or 1000.
Not all certifications have approach capability; it depends what the manufacturor has requested.
You're correct; FSDO's have little knowledge; but then again, that gives me a job in trying to educate them.
Marty Heller
WAAS Program office
RV-7, drilling my firewall....slooooowly....
[quote] Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:14:14 -0400
From: pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: IFR GPS
Thanks to everyone that replied for their answers. I'm aware of the differences between Certificated and Experimentals, and was hoping for some factual insight. I had not thought of being ramp checked as a possibility since (in my experience) the FAA only was concerned about paperwork, and not the way the airplane was equipped. Polling the FSDOs (again, in my experience) is a waste of time since they'll only direct you to the FARs and nobody is going to put their butt in a sling by giving a written opinion. ..... And David's post pointed out that the regs are totally outdated. My partner in the -10 flies professionally, and I'd hate to have him faced with the FAA firing squad.
All the research I've done so far points to the fact that in order to be used as a primary IFR GPS in an experimental aircraft the GPS must MEET the requirements of the TSO. I'm a retired electronics engineer, and used to reading specs. However, it seems (at least to me) that even trying to see if your GPS meets the TSO is next to impossible. Degree in GPS certification is almost certainly required ..... and I don't have that. The problem really lies in trying to get the information on the GPS that's in your hand (or mounted in the panel). The manufacturer of the glass panel GPS I'm looking at did say that their GPS meets SOME of the TSO requirements, but not all. Didn't say what parameters are on which side. EAA was really responsive to my query (I'm sure they get a lot of the same questions over and over again) which I didn't expect.
So far, I nobody has stepped up to the plate and said 'I fly behind (insert favorite glass panel) with built-in GPS, and this is what I do. Even off list. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation.
Linn
do not archive
Paul Besing wrote: [quote] .ExternalClass DIV {;} Great post, David. GPS is great, but we've been fine without it for a long time. My RV-4 is IFR and has a Garmin 396 for my basic VFR nav, and IFR backup for situational awareness. I still like flying needles better than lines. But the VFR GPS makes a GREAT aid to situational awareness, plus terrain, obstacles, XM radio, WX, etc.
Paul Besing
---
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List |
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