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bobefx(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:53 am    Post subject: Metals Reply with quote

To Group,
If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you can find just about all you need to know about metal properties for the novice.
Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.
Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30
6063T52 is 17

Bobefx

do not archive

[quote][b]


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randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:04 am    Post subject: Metals Reply with quote

Bob
That is what I am saying

You missed my point.

Comparing them as 6061-T6 They are the same strength

IF they have different Yield Strengths they will be different.

IF They are both 6061-T6 they will have the same "Strength"regardless of the geometry.


DO NOT ARCHIVE




Randall J Hebert

Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977


From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:52 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Metals

To Group,
If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you can find just about all you need to know about metal properties for the novice.
Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.
Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30
      6063T52 is 17

Bobefx

do not archive

[quote]

3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com
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[b]


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bobefx(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:36 am    Post subject: Metals Reply with quote

Randall,

They are not both 6061T6. See my post on metals.

Even if they were both 6061T6 the web of the structural makes it stronger. Yes 6160T6 properties are the same except when extruded into shapes. The thicker part is

stronger then the thinner. An inside radius that is thicker and stronger (more mass) than the square corner. Like I said take a 2' length of each, put them in a vice and twist

them. Shear would be the same.

I would not stake my life on architectural.

Bobefx
---


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dan(at)hillsgun.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:46 am    Post subject: Metals Reply with quote

I just got off the phone with Zenith, they are suppling .093 angle which has a square inside corners and told me that the .125 angle which also has square a square inside corner, which I am using will be more than adequate. They also said that the angle with the radius is slightly stronger, but it is obviously not necessary since they supply the square cornered stock. The material I have is 6061 T6 so while online metals may not carry it with the square corner it is available from other sources. Dan,

701 scratch builder


From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 7:52 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Metals


To Group,

If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you can find just about all you need to know about metal properties for the novice.

Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.

Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30

    6063T52 is 17



Bobefx



do not archive


[quote][b]


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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:01 am    Post subject: Metals Reply with quote

Bob
It is a moot point, I agree I would not use Architectural

I also agree that the thinner web is not as strong, but the radius is not what makes it stronger, it is the different yield strength that does. as you pointed out the T52 is about half as strong as T6

I believe we are saying the same thing. Don't use the Architectural !!!, but not for the reason you give, for the reason I give. i.e. metal strength not geometry.

I really like this list because we all have something to share. I didn't realize that the square ends were architectural. I would not have bought them anyway because they are NOT 6061-T6.

My local supplier has the rounded corners (these are classic "angles" as I refer to them) but the only reason I bought them is because they were T6.

Happy building. What is your amount of progress? I am about 95% with the right wing and have all tails section done.

DO NOT Archive



Randall J Hebert

Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977


From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:36 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Metals

Randall,

They are not both 6061T6. See my post on metals.

Even if they were both 6061T6 the web of the structural makes it stronger. Yes 6160T6 properties are the same except when extruded into shapes. The thicker part is

stronger then the thinner. An inside radius that is thicker and stronger (more mass) than the square corner. Like I said take a 2' length of each, put them in a vice and twist

them. Shear would be the same.

I would not stake my life on architectural.

Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: Randall J. Hebert <randy(at)rjhebertassoc.com>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:00:46 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Metals

Bob
That is what I am saying

You missed my point.

Comparing them as 6061-T6 They are the same strength

IF they have different Yield Strengths they will be different.

IF They are both 6061-T6 they will have the same "Strength"regardless of the geometry.


DO NOT ARCHIVE




Randall J Hebert

Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977


From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:52 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Metals

To Group,
If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you can find just about all you need to know about metal properties for the novice.
Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.
Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30
      6063T52 is 17

Bobefx

do not archive

[quote] 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com


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[b]


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bobefx(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:17 am    Post subject: Metals Reply with quote

Dan,

Thanks, I have never looked for 6061T6 in architectural and none of my present suppliers or ones I have called carry it. We have also stayed away from it per our engineers due to strength issues. That is a motion pix issue not an aircraft issue. I can't find it in any of my catalogs either. Back to the Internet. Smile
In case I need 6061t6 square angle for my 701, where did you get yours? I do not have the kit in hand yet. Some time in July.
Bobefx
do not archive
---


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bobefx(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:31 am    Post subject: Metals Reply with quote

Randall,

Dan just pointed out that the angle he has is square corner and 60601t6. See his post.

Yes I like the exchange we have on this list and I learn something new all the time.

My 601 is 80% and my 701 is not here yet. I will pick it up in July. A project that just has one wing done.

Bobefx

do not archive
---


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randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:43 am    Post subject: Metals Reply with quote

Great

Generally we engineers ignore the fillets when we calculate the section properties (geometry) of the angles because it gives a slightly conservative result.

So in fact You, Dan and Zenith are correct They are slightly stronger. I just don't see it as enough to worry about.

I read somewhere on this list that the .093 that Zenith provides is a special run for them. Since I am scratch building I haven't seen their spar so I can't comment on it's shape. I am using 0.125 with the fillets.

Do Not Archive



Randall J Hebert

Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977


From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:28 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Metals

Randall,

Dan just pointed out that the angle he has is square corner and 60601t6. See his post.

Yes I like the exchange we have on this list and I learn something new all the time.

My 601 is 80% and my 701 is not here yet. I will pick it up in July. A project that just has one wing done.

Bobefx

do not archive
----- Original Message ----
From: Randall J. Hebert <randy(at)rjhebertassoc.com>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:55:09 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Metals

Bob
It is a moot point, I agree I would not use Architectural

I also agree that the thinner web is not as strong, but the radius is not what makes it stronger, it is the different yield strength that does. as you pointed out the T52 is about half as strong as T6

I believe we are saying the same thing. Don't use the Architectural !!!, but not for the reason you give, for the reason I give. i.e. metal strength not geometry.

I really like this list because we all have something to share. I didn't realize that the square ends were architectural. I would not have bought them anyway because they are NOT 6061-T6.

My local supplier has the rounded corners (these are classic "angles" as I refer to them) but the only reason I bought them is because they were T6.

Happy building. What is your amount of progress? I am about 95% with the right wing and have all tails section done.

DO NOT Archive



Randall J Hebert

Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977


From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:36 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Metals

Randall,

They are not both 6061T6. See my post on metals.

Even if they were both 6061T6 the web of the structural makes it stronger. Yes 6160T6 properties are the same except when extruded into shapes. The thicker part is

stronger then the thinner. An inside radius that is thicker and stronger (more mass) than the square corner. Like I said take a 2' length of each, put them in a vice and twist

them. Shear would be the same.

I would not stake my life on architectural.

Bobefx
----- Original Message ----
From: Randall J. Hebert <randy(at)rjhebertassoc.com>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:00:46 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith701801-List: Metals

Bob
That is what I am saying

You missed my point.

Comparing them as 6061-T6 They are the same strength

IF they have different Yield Strengths they will be different.

IF They are both 6061-T6 they will have the same "Strength"regardless of the geometry.


DO NOT ARCHIVE




Randall J Hebert

Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977


From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:52 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Zenith701801-List: Metals

To Group,
If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you can find just about all you need to know about metal properties for the novice.
Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.
Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30
      6063T52 is 17

Bobefx

do not archive

Quote:
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[/b]

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:54 am    Post subject: Metals Reply with quote

Hi: I actually found mine here in Yakima at a local supplier, Pacific Steel. They had it in stock which surprised me. It was just under $1.00 a foot in 25 foot lengths including tax. I had them price some sheet stock as well and they were not able to get anything less than .032 which is the thickest I had them price, but they were competitive on that. Dan


From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:17 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Metals


Dan,



Thanks, I have never looked for 6061T6 in architectural and none of my present suppliers or ones I have called carry it. We have also stayed away from it per our engineers due to strength issues. That is a motion pix issue not an aircraft issue. I can't find it in any of my catalogs either. Back to the Internet. Smile

In case I need 6061t6 square angle for my 701, where did you get yours? I do not have the kit in hand yet. Some time in July.

Bobefx

do not archive

----- Original Message ----
From: Dan <dan(at)hillsgun.com>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:46:24 AM
Subject: RE: Metals
I just got off the phone with Zenith, they are suppling .093 angle which has a square inside corners and told me that the .125 angle which also has square a square inside corner, which I am using will be more than adequate. They also said that the angle with the radius is slightly stronger, but it is obviously not necessary since they supply the square cornered stock. The material I have is 6061 T6 so while online metals may not carry it with the square corner it is available from other sources. Dan,

701 scratch builder


From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 7:52 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Metals


To Group,

If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you can find just about all you need to know about metal properties for the novice.

Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.

Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30

    6063T52 is 17



Bobefx







[quote][b]


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bobefx(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:47 am    Post subject: Metals Reply with quote

Dan,

Wow that is the best price I have seen in a long time. Aluminum is going though the roof at this time. I buy it about once a month and the price goes up each month since the first of the year. But this is Los Angeles. We seem to pay more for everything.

It sounds like Pacific has stuff for the aircraft industry. I called a supplier here and he told me that if I wanted 6161t6 square angel I should find a supplier to the large aircraft builders. I did, will not sell to me, I can't buy in large enough quantity. And they are back ordered to Boeing for the next 6 mo. Looking for .025 sheet and some other material. There price was about 2/3 or less of the other suppliers I called.

If I go to Washington I am told I can find a scrap yard that deals in Boeing left overs and scrap. Do you know if that is true?

Bobefx

do not archive
---


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:03 am    Post subject: Metals Reply with quote

Architectural vs Structural webbing aside, OnlineMetals is a great source.

They are only a few miles from me, so I just call ahead and then pickup what is needed.
DO NOT ARCHIVE!

John Marzulli

http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/
http://www.JohnMarzulli.net/

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Bob Sturgis <bobefx(at)yahoo.com (bobefx(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote] To Group,
If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you can find just about all you need to know about metal properties for the novice.
Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.
Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30
6063T52 is 17

Bobefx

do not archive

Quote:


[b]


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dan(at)hillsgun.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:15 am    Post subject: Metals Reply with quote

Don’t feel alone, our steel(and aluminum) prices are rocketing here as well so I was very pleased with the price. They have been here for quite some time, but this is the first time I have purchased from them as they only deal in full lengths.
We have a steel supply that I normally used which was convenient and I could purchase drops relatively cheaply, but with prices the way they are now they raised there prices so high that it looks like it is more economical to purchase full lengths from pacific and leave them set in my rack until I need it. Boeing used to have a surplus store in Kent that was a candy store for me. You could usually find lots of neat stuff whether you needed it or not and usually at a good price. They closed it the beginning of this year and are selling it online at auction. You used to be able to go thru a bin of whatever (drill bits, reamers, ect) and pick out what you want and paid for it by the pound, now you go to there auction site and bid on some outrageous amount of an item like 200 pounds of drill bits mostly #40. The good old days of Boeing surplus are gone. Dan


From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:47 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Metals


Dan,



Wow that is the best price I have seen in a long time. Aluminum is going though the roof at this time. I buy it about once a month and the price goes up each month since the first of the year. But this is Los Angeles. We seem to pay more for everything.



It sounds like Pacific has stuff for the aircraft industry. I called a supplier here and he told me that if I wanted 6161t6 square angel I should find a supplier to the large aircraft builders. I did, will not sell to me, I can't buy in large enough quantity. And they are back ordered to Boeing for the next 6 mo. Looking for .025 sheet and some other material. There price was about 2/3 or less of the other suppliers I called.



If I go to Washington I am told I can find a scrap yard that deals in Boeing left overs and scrap. Do you know if that is true?



Bobefx



do not archive

----- Original Message ----
From: Dan <dan(at)hillsgun.com>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:53:50 AM
Subject: RE: Metals
Hi: I actually found mine here in Yakima at a local supplier, Pacific Steel. They had it in stock which surprised me. It was just under $1.00 a foot in 25 foot lengths including tax. I had them price some sheet stock as well and they were not able to get anything less than .032 which is the thickest I had them price, but they were competitive on that. Dan


From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:17 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List: Metals


Dan,



Thanks, I have never looked for 6061T6 in architectural and none of my present suppliers or ones I have called carry it. We have also stayed away from it per our engineers due to strength issues. That is a motion pix issue not an aircraft issue. I can't find it in any of my catalogs either. Back to the Internet. Smile

In case I need 6061t6 square angle for my 701, where did you get yours? I do not have the kit in hand yet. Some time in July.

Bobefx

do not archive

----- Original Message ----
From: Dan < dan(at)hillsgun.com >
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:46:24 AM
Subject: RE: Metals
I just got off the phone with Zenith, they are suppling .093 angle which has a square inside corners and told me that the .125 angle which also has square a square inside corner, which I am using will be more than adequate. They also said that the angle with the radius is slightly stronger, but it is obviously not necessary since they supply the square cornered stock. The material I have is 6061 T6 so while online metals may not carry it with the square corner it is available from other sources. Dan,

701 scratch builder


From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Sturgis
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 7:52 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Metals


To Group,

If you need fast info on metals go to onlinemetals.com and you can find just about all you need to know about metal properties for the novice.

Extruded Aluminum Angle 6061T6 (structural) and Extruded Architectural Aluminum Angle 6063T52 are both covered. Notice that Architectural or square corner aluminum angle is not 6061T6.

Ultimate shear strength 6061T6 is 30

    6063T52 is 17



Bobefx








[quote][b]


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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List
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