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naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: Filler

All-

     I'm polishing 95%+ of my  project, but don't see any way of making the top skin/tip fiberglass rib  juncture look good without a bit of filler and paint. Not because of gaps, but  "Crinkles".I've decided to paint just the nose skin and tips of the  outboards and stab.

     I've seen projects that used  regular Bondo and the damned stuff cracks and comes out. Fiberfil sticks great,  but you can't work it like Bondo. I'm afraid of grinding off aluminum trying to  smooth out the Fiberfil.

     Any alternatives, or should I  just haul my outboards and stab to a paint shop and let them deal with it? Not  that that's a guarantee- I remember a posting many moons ago where a paint shop  ground off the tops of the rivets while painting.

 Bill Naumuk

Townville, Pa.

HDS  Systems/Corvair 90%

   [quote][b]

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: Filler

Hi Bill,



 I too am wondering how to deal with the small gaps left on my wing tips.  One thing I am considering is to build up the fiberglass with epoxy laden flox.  This is similar to filling with bondo or similar stuff, but instead of adding a new layer of material it actually bonds to the composite structure and becomes part of it.  The flox will not be as easy to make beautiful, but that is not my goal.  I am more interested in providing a good surface for the air flow.



 I am also planning to do a similar job on the front of my engine cowl.  After installing both the top and bottom to my plane there are gaps in the front corners that I want to smooth over.  Epoxy and flox should do the job with possible glass cloth in areas that need larger fills.



 It seems odd that the most difficult problems to fix on an "All Metal" plane are actually fiberglass issues.



 

 Paul

 XL getting close



 

 At 08:31 AM 6/29/2008, you wrote:



 [quote]All-

     I'm polishing 95%+ of my project, but don't see any way of making the top skin/tip fiberglass rib juncture look good without a bit of filler and paint. Not because of gaps, but "Crinkles".I've decided to paint just the nose skin and tips of the outboards and stab.

     I've seen projects that used regular Bondo and the damned stuff cracks and comes out. Fiberfil sticks great, but you can't work it like Bondo. I'm afraid of grinding off aluminum trying to smooth out the Fiberfil.

     Any alternatives, or should I just haul my outboards and stab to a paint shop and let them deal with it? Not that that's a guarantee- I remember a posting many moons ago where a paint shop ground off the tops of the rivets while painting.

 Bill Naumuk

 Townville, Pa.

 HDS Systems/Corvair 90%

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  

[/b] 	
[b]

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: Filler

Hi Bill;

I think the polished 601 will look great, but I'd put paint on anything 

called frontal edge surfaces.  I used to clean a C-150 aluminum wings of 

bugs and the juice changed

the character of the lead edges during cleaning.  On my 601, the dark 

blue paint cleans up much easier than aluminum and the bugs are a little 

harder to notice right away.

The bugs are very noticeable on a light color like my nose cowl, but 

oddly, they don't seem to collect on the rudder at all.



http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/601ezfrontright.gif



I'd keep the painting in-house if possible and use an acrylic-enamel if 

not a water-base urethane. It's not that hard once you get started with it.

Do have a finished aircraft before beginning paint though.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

Bill Naumuk wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   All-

     I'm polishing 95%+ of my project, but don't see any way of making 

 the top skin/tip fiberglass rib juncture look good without a bit of 

 filler and paint. Not because of gaps, but "Crinkles".I've decided to 

 paint just the nose skin and tips of the outboards and stab.

     I've seen projects that used regular Bondo and the damned stuff 

 cracks and comes out. Fiberfil sticks great, but you can't work it 

 like Bondo. I'm afraid of grinding off aluminum trying to smooth 

 out the Fiberfil.

     Any alternatives, or should I just haul my outboards and stab to a 

 paint shop and let them deal with it? Not that that's a guarantee- I 

 remember a posting many moons ago where a paint shop ground off the 

 tops of the rivets while painting.

 Bill Naumuk

 Townville, Pa.

 HDS Systems/Corvair 90%

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: Filler

Larry-

    Aye, bucko, but the question was, what do you use for filler that will 

stick and stay stuck on those painted areas? I won't be needing more than 

what it takes to clean up the edges of the outboard tips and stab tips. 

Purely for vanity's sake.

---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: Filler

Paul-

     You're in close to the same  situation as me.I don't have gaps, but the "Crinkles" left from trying to  form the aluminum around the fiberglass. You're also basically talking about the  same stuff as I'm thinking of using. It's Bondo with fiberglass  threads mixed in. It'll never come off, but once it sets up it's like  steel. 

     I think I'm going to talk to a  guy I went to high school with and owns a body shop. He's only 10 minutes away  so hopefully I can get him to do the job without grinding my rivets  off.

                                                            Bill

     

 [quote]   ---

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: Filler

Hi Bill,



 Actually, Bondo is a polyester resin based product.  It will shrink with time.  The stuff I would prefer is epoxy binder holding flox.  



 I learned about flox and its use by purchasing a composite training kit from Aircraft Spruce.  After starting on my FWF I learned there was a great deal of composite work needed in the kit from US Jabiru and the instructions seemed to assume the builder already is an expert at composite work.  This would be true if we just finished building a Jabiru plane like they kind they sell, but I'm afraid my own composite knowledge was sorely lacking.



 Have fun,



 Paul

 XL getting close



 

 At 06:57 PM 6/29/2008, you wrote:

 [quote]Paul-

     You're in close to the same situation as me.I don't have gaps, but the "Crinkles" left from trying to form the aluminum around the fiberglass. You're also basically talking about the same stuff as I'm thinking of using. It's Bondo with fiberglass threads mixed in. It'll never come off, but once it sets up it's like steel. 

     I think I'm going to talk to a guy I went to high school with and owns a body shop. He's only 10 minutes away so hopefully I can get him to do the job without grinding my rivets off.

                                                            Bill[b]

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Filler

I don't casually use any filler Bill,

with the exception of one spot where I dinged the wing skin the area of 

a dime.

and on the fiberglass cowling.

In that spot of aluminum, I used Bondo. Seems to have worked.



Larry McFarland

do not archive



Bill Naumuk wrote:

[quote] 



 Larry-

    Aye, bucko, but the question was, what do you use for filler that 

 will stick and stay stuck on those painted areas? I won't be needing 

 more than what it takes to clean up the edges of the outboard tips and 

 stab tips. Purely for vanity's sake.

 ---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Filler

Larry-

    I'm not crazy about using filler, either. I can live without it, but 

once again, it's vanity.

                                                        Bill

---

JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: Filler

I had another thought re filling the rivets or fixing the crinkles. Why not  stand back about twenty feet then look at your handy work and see if filling the  rivets will matter a hoot!

  

 John  Read



Phone: 303-648-3261

Fax: 303-648-3262

Cell: 719-494-4567   

  In a message dated 6/29/2008 8:01:36 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,  naumuk(at)alltel.net writes:

 [quote]   Paul-

       You're in close to the same    situation as me.I don't have gaps, but the "Crinkles" left from trying to    form the aluminum around the fiberglass. You're also basically talking about    the same stuff as I'm thinking of using. It's Bondo with fiberglass    threads mixed in. It'll never come off, but once it sets up it's like    steel. 

       I think I'm going to talk to a    guy I went to high school with and owns a body shop. He's only 10 minutes away    so hopefully I can get him to do the job without grinding my rivets    off.

                                                              Bill

       

   [quote]     ---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: Filler

John, John, John-

      No homebuilder is going to say "Nice job" from 20  feet away. The only people who would wouldn't know an aileron from an  elevator. Vanity or pride, take your pick.

      The instinctive habit of builders zeroing in on  the fiberglass/aluminum junctures is precisely why this discussion keeps  recurring. I've seen everything from Jeff Small's zero filler HDS with gorgeous  seams to 1/2" gaps plugged with Bondo that has fallen out and left, well, 1/2"  gaps flapping in the wind. The goal is to find a filler that's going  to be around for the long run if you have to use it.

     After seeing Mark Langford's KR2, filling rivet domes is  going overboard in my opinion. Mark has arguably the most highly tweaked Corvair  conversion around in his plane, but you'd swear the airframe was built as an  afterthought. Raw, unfilled, unpainted fiberglass. Think of exposed rivet domes  over every square inch of flying surface, but he's 20 knots faster than the  cleanest 601 out there. 

     Think about it. I just gave a review of at least 3  different homebuilts that I looked at in the past 5 years. You're not going to  get that kind of a detailed description from viewing 20 feet away. Don't  kid yourself- builders are going to notice gross imperfections, and they're  really the only people whose opinion counts.

     Incidentally- just saw a restored DC-3 at a local  fly-in. You'd swear the rivet lines were laid out by drunken  epileptics! 

                                                        Bill

                                do  not archive 

 [quote]   ---

entecrj(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: Filler

[quote]   Subject: Re: Filler

   



   John, John, John-

        No homebuilder is going to say "Nice job" from    20 feet away. 

   ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    

   This discussion reminds me of an open house I attended several years ago    at Zenairs open house in Mexico MO.

    

   Someone had flown in a 601HD, appeared to be scratch built, rivet lines    and sheet metal edges not particularly straight, paint job had overspray    in some areas.

   Two gentlemen were standing about ten feet away observing the    workmanship, the first one was pointing out the shortcomings of the    workmanship, when the second one made the simple comment, "yeh but he flew    here and we drove!"

    

   Nuff said.

    

   R. Johnson

    

   do not archive

    

    

[b]

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: Filler

I don't blame anyone for wanting their aircraft to look as nice as  practical, but it might help to have some perspective on the appearance thing.  Have you ever seen a Pietenpol or a Baby Ace, how about a Volksplane? The  RV guys are going to look down their noses at you even if you gold plate your  Zenith. The aformentioned planes often look like they were built from scrap  found behind the barn and old bedsheets, yet fly and perform as intended. You  chose a Zenith, filling and filing and polishing will yield-- a Zenith!  Zeniths are built with rivets that have a hole in them. 

 [quote]   ---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: Filler

Dave-

     Agreed, but I've seen an absolutely beautiful natural  mahogany shellaced Piet. Looks like a piece of flying furniture. 

     I've been at this long enough to have accepted the  fact that MY project will fly on MY terms when it gets around to  it.

     Once again, vanity or pride.

                                                        Bill 

 [quote]   ---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: Filler

Francisco-

      I sold my share  of a a very nice 180HP Superhawk to build my project  and have many times (On nice flying days) regretted the decision.  All you can do is keep plugging on.

      Most of us will  only build once or twice in a lifetime. You might as well set the  highest standards for your workmanship instead of spending your time  thinking up excuses for crappy work down the line. It's all up to  the individual. You can survive in a cardboard box, or you can live in  a respectable owner built home.

     I don't know how a question  about a recommendation for fillers mutated into this subject, but I've said my  piece and now I'm going out to work on my project. Long time  listers know that I'm on vacation. I haven't posted this many words in  the past 6 months!

     Good building, all!

                                                                 Bill

                                       do not  archive

 [quote]   ---

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: Filler

Things could be worse.  We could be talking about Scotchbrite or structure failures.



 As a "Seasoned" engineer, I can tell you that these issues over how perfect to do things are at the root of all big projects in the real world.  The long term wisdom is that "Good enough" is "Perfect".  That means you must decide just how good is good enough and move on from there.



 For an amateur airplane builder, this is a very difficult decision.  We could choose to reach for perfection (filling rivet stem holes) or do a very sloppy job that just gets our plane airborne.  For my money, the nice balance is to shoot for maximum performance (which means minimum weight and good fit of parts) and leave the building of "Show Planes" to others.



 However, it has been said and I will second the motion - it is up to each builder to make his own decisions in these and many other things.  That is the nice part of building stuff without a boss hounding you.



 Paul

 XL almost done



 

 At 12:37 PM 7/1/2008, you wrote:

 [quote]    I don't know how a question about a recommendation for fillers mutated into this subject, but I've said my piece and now I'm going out to work on my project. [b]

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Filler

My list for decisions.



    #1 Safety



    #2 Efficiency - The sooner I finish the sooner I go flying.



    #3 Cost effective - The less I spend on the plane the more money I have 

for fuel.

                                                 .

                                                 .

                                                 .

                                                 .

    #1,000,001 - How someone else thinks it looks.



For me the airplane is a tool.  I've never been one of the "ship in a 

bottle" types.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



"Hope for the best,

but prepare for the worst."



do not archive





---

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: Filler

I think you've got your priorities set just about perfectly.

---

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: Filler

It would be a rare Piet, I'd love to see it (The Peit was one of my first  aviation fantasy's)  and your 601 will be a rare and exceptional Zenith.  I'd never consider polishing that much ally, because the job NEVER ends. 

 [quote]   ---

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: Filler

As long as we are taking a census here..... my  humble and universally ignored opinion is this: if it means enough to a builder  to fill in all those zillions of rivets, it would make more sense to dimple all  the rivet holes in the first place then set them flush. Then the sanding and  filling in would actually have a higher payback and the sanding would be more  controllable. 

  

 That being said, I did not dimple and would not  fill the rivet holes. If the level of scrutiny reaches criticism of my rivet  holes I will employ a Cajun admonition, "Hey.... take you ass back over to you  own plane, YOU! 'Garde de dan.... fis putan la merde comme ca."

  

 Ed 

   [quote][b]

japhillipsga(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: Filler

BINGO for me as well ! 

 

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