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XL plans trade for HDS plans anyone...

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Andrewlieser

Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Chicagoland

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: XL plans trade for HDS plans anyone...

Anyone interested in a set of XL plans that currently has HDS plans?  I have decided to try and switch my project from a XL to an HDS if anyone wants to swap.  Mainly because I would like the option to go with a smaller engine if I want to.  I do not need my aircraft to be sport pilot certificated and prefer the HDS to the HD.  Please let me know!

_________________
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: XL plans trade for HDS plans anyone...

Andrew,

You can certainly switch from the XL to a HDS, but the smaller engine 

works against you for the wing area and cross section of the HDS.  You 

do need at least a 100 hp

engine for the HDS to perform well if you intend passengers and or 

multiple fuel tanks. You may meet the LSA performance requirements if 

you pay attention to weight and prop pitch combinations and if you are a 

scratch builder, because you record the data you find. Otherwise, you 

adhere to Zenith numbers that are just a bit the far side of LSA.



Good luck,

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

do not archive



Andrewlieser wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Anyone interested in a set of XL plans that currently has HDS plans?  I have decided to try and switch my project from a XL to an HDS if anyone wants to swap.  Mainly because I would like the option to go with a smaller engine if I want to.  I do not need my aircraft to be sport pilot certificated and prefer the HDS to the HD.  Please let me know!



 --------

 Andrew Lieser

 S/N 6-7045

 http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser

leo(at)zuehlfield.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: XL plans trade for HDS plans anyone...

Andrew,  I have to take exception to a couple of Larry's statements.  I 

have a HDS tail dragger with a 80 hp Rotax 912.  It weighs 674 Lbs. 

empty.  It cruses at 125 mph indicated at max continuous power, verified 

by GPS.  118 mph at 75% power, 1100 Lbs.  It stalls at 50 mph.  If you 

build the plane, kit or scratch, the FAA says you are the builder and 

you write the POH.  I have two leading edge tanks, 20 gal. total, giving 

5 hrs duration.  The wife and I both have three hour bladders so that is 

plenty of fuel.  Zenith numbers are theirs, not yours.

Leo Gates

N601Z - CH601HDS TDO

Rotax 912UL

LarryMcFarland wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Andrew,

 You can certainly switch from the XL to a HDS, but the smaller engine 

 works against you for the wing area and cross section of the HDS.  You 

 do need at least a 100 hp

 engine for the HDS to perform well if you intend passengers and or 

 multiple fuel tanks. You may meet the LSA performance requirements if 

 you pay attention to weight and prop pitch combinations and if you are 

 a scratch builder, because you record the data you find. Otherwise, 

 you adhere to Zenith numbers that are just a bit the far side of LSA.

 Good luck,

 Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

 do not archive

 Andrewlieser wrote:

> 

> <Andrewlieser(at)gmail.com>

>

> Anyone interested in a set of XL plans that currently has HDS plans?  

> I have decided to try and switch my project from a XL to an HDS if 

> anyone wants to swap.  Mainly because I would like the option to go 

> with a smaller engine if I want to.  I do not need my aircraft to be 

> sport pilot certificated and prefer the HDS to the HD.  Please let me 

> know!

>

> --------

> Andrew Lieser

> S/N 6-7045

> http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser

Peter Barthold

Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 25
Location: Germany

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: Re: XL plans trade for HDS plans anyone...

speaking about HDS leading edge tanks...



did you gentlemen buy or build your LE- tanks?

does it make sense to build them ? 

or would you prefer to spend the 800$ to have them fabricated ?

are there plans anywhere? (unfortunately zenith does not sell plans for le tanks)



Andrew, looking at the size and picture of your workshop, I would consider the HDS a better choice than the XL. The wing panels are significantly smaller and more easy to handle. This was the main reason for me to prefer the HDS.



OTOH the HDS unfortunately is not supported and updated as the XL is. No QBK, no CAD machining of kit parts and so on.



Best greetings from Germany

Peter

HDS TDO

Tail done, Wings in progress

carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: XL plans trade for HDS plans anyone...

Wouldn't operating altitude be a factor for engine choice??



Carlos

just being nosy...



2008/7/9 Leo Gates <leo(at)zuehlfield.com (leo(at)zuehlfield.com)>:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Leo Gates <leo(at)zuehlfield.com (leo(at)zuehlfield.com)>

  

 Andrew,  I have to take exception to a couple of Larry's statements.  I have a HDS tail dragger with a 80 hp Rotax 912.  It weighs 674 Lbs. empty.  It cruses at 125 mph indicated at max continuous power, verified by GPS.  118 mph at 75% power, 1100 Lbs.  It stalls at 50 mph.  If you build the plane, kit or scratch, the FAA says you are the builder and you write the POH.  I have two leading edge tanks, 20 gal. total, giving 5 hrs duration.  The wife and I both have three hour bladders so that is plenty of fuel.  Zenith numbers are theirs, not yours.

  

 Leo Gates

 N601Z - CH601HDS TDO

 Rotax 912UL

 

 LarryMcFarland wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry(at)macsmachine.com (larry(at)macsmachine.com)>

 

 Andrew,

 You can certainly switch from the XL to a HDS, but the smaller engine works against you for the wing area and cross section of the HDS.  You do need at least a 100 hp

 engine for the HDS to perform well if you intend passengers and or multiple fuel tanks. You may meet the LSA performance requirements if you pay attention to weight and prop pitch combinations and if you are a scratch builder, because you record the data you find. Otherwise, you adhere to Zenith numbers that are just a bit the far side of LSA.

  

 Good luck,

 Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

 do not archive

 

 Andrewlieser wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Andrewlieser" <Andrewlieser(at)gmail.com (Andrewlieser(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Anyone interested in a set of XL plans that currently has HDS plans?  I have decided to try and switch my project from a XL to an HDS if anyone wants to swap.  Mainly because I would like the option to go with a smaller engine if I want to.  I do not need my aircraft to be sport pilot certificated and prefer the HDS to the HD.  Please let me know!

  

 --------

 Andrew Lieser

 S/N 6-7045

 http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser

 	
	
 

 

 

 [b]

klaus(at)utdallas.edu
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: XL plans trade for HDS plans anyone...

Hi Andrew,



I like to confirm Leo's claims about the HDS. My HDS has the 80 hp 

Rotax, has

17,000 ft ceiling with single pilot and 14,000 ft ceiling at 1,100 lbs, 

takes off in 

less than 3,000 ft of runway at 9,500 ft density altitude, 

has top speed of 113 kts, and cruises at 90-100 kts depending on how 

much fuel I want to spend per hour. The key is to keep the weight down, 

and by that I mean DOWN. On top of that, I found

wing root fairings to be important.

It may well be that some folks will not agree with the above evaluation,

and you should take my email just for what it is: my opinion.



Best wishes for the construction,



Klaus

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: XL plans trade for HDS plans anyone...

All-

    1. Larry Mac built his own, but it's easy to infer from the pictures on 

his site and reading his log that it's neither cost effective to do it 

yourself nor a job for the faint of heart.

    2. The most significant thing ANY builder can do is take a couple of 

days off and build a cradle on casters for the fuse. My shop is 14'x28'. 

Take a look at my fairly recent attached pictures- think I could live 

without the cradle? Yes, I have workbenches at both ends- another big plus. 

If you're scratchbuilding, you're better off with the HDS because you can 

get by with a shorter brake.

    3. HDS parts are supported, but the plans and manual haven't been 

updated in years. In my opinion, matched hole CAD doesn't mean squat, but 

preformed upper longerons and injection molded lower nose gear mounts and 

the like will save you untold hours of work and lost sleep.

    Bottom line is, they're both 601s, and the two aircraft have similar 

performance. The HDS might wind up being a bit less in total outlay, but the 

XL can be built in at least 20% less time.

    Good building!

                                                                Bill



 	  Quote: 	
		   did you gentlemen buy or build your LE- tanks?

 does it make sense to build them ?

 or would you prefer to spend the 800$ to have them fabricated ?

 are there plans anywhere? (unfortunately zenith does not sell plans for le 

 tanks)



 Andrew, looking at the size and picture of your workshop, I would consider 

 the HDS a better choice than the XL. The wing panels are significantly 

 smaller and more easy to handle. This was the main reason for me to prefer 

 the HDS.



 OTOH the HDS unfortunately is not supported and updated as the XL is. No 

 QBK, no CAD machining of kit parts and so on.

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leo(at)zuehlfield.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: XL plans trade for HDS plans anyone...

I bought mine from Zenith.



Leo Gates

N601Z - CH601HDS TDO

Rotax 912UL

Peter Barthold wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 speaking about HDS leading edge tanks...



 did you gentlemen buy or build your LE- tanks?

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: XL plans trade for HDS plans anyone...

Hi Peter,

I think it's silly to buy the tanks if you have the motivation and 

access to equipment that would enable building them yourself.

I built mine and have been totally satisfied with them, especially being 

of a slightly heavier gage.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



Peter Barthold wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 speaking about HDS leading edge tanks...



 did you gentlemen buy or build your LE- tanks?

 does it make sense to build them ? 

 or would you prefer to spend the 800$ to have them fabricated ?

 are there plans anywhere? (unfortunately zenith does not sell plans for le tanks)



 Andrew, looking at the size and picture of your workshop, I would consider the HDS a better choice than the XL. The wing panels are significantly smaller and more easy to handle. This was the main reason for me to prefer the HDS.



 OTOH the HDS unfortunately is not supported and updated as the XL is. No QBK, no CAD machining of kit parts and so on.



 Best greetings from Germany

 Peter

 HDS TDO

 Tail done, Wings in progress





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=191915#191915

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: XL plans trade for HDS plans anyone...

You're exactly right Leo,

and I perhaps overstated the difference between the XL and the HDS, tho 

the XL beats us hands down with equivalent engine and weight with the 

advantage of

wing area and a better chord for speed.  That said, the typical HDS is a 

lot heavier than yours and not many of those I've seen would perform as 

well as

yours has done with the 80 hp Rotax.  On the POH numbers for LSA 

performance, I hope you're right. At airworthiness, my inspector 

explained that a kit built came with  performance numbers. 

Thanks,

Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

 	  Quote: 	
		   do not archive



 2008/7/9 Leo Gates <leo(at)zuehlfield.com <mailto:leo(at)zuehlfield.com>>:



     

     <mailto:leo(at)zuehlfield.com>>



     Andrew,  I have to take exception to a couple of Larry's

     statements.  I have a HDS tail dragger with a 80 hp Rotax 912.  It

     weighs 674 Lbs. empty.  It cruses at 125 mph indicated at max

     continuous power, verified by GPS.  118 mph at 75% power, 1100

     Lbs.  It stalls at 50 mph.  If you build the plane, kit or

     scratch, the FAA says you are the builder and you write the POH.

      I have two leading edge tanks, 20 gal. total, giving 5 hrs

     duration.  The wife and I both have three hour bladders so that is

     plenty of fuel.  Zenith numbers are theirs, not yours.



     Leo Gates

     N601Z - CH601HDS TDO

     Rotax 912UL

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