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Hydraulic Lock

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pulsair(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

Went out to the airport tonight to fly and had a  hydraulic lock. Anyone remember what cylinder I remove the plug to drain the  excessive oil? Thanks. Jeff Classic IV 912UL KTZR

   [quote][b]

kitfoxpilot(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

When I had this problem C I just removed my bottom plugs C oil ran out and problem was solved!

  

 Ray Gignac

 Wingless

   

 From: pulsair(at)mindspring.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Kitfox-List: Hydraulic Lock

Date: Tue C 1 Jul 2008 21:06:08 -0400

     Went out to the airport tonight to fly and had a hydraulic lock. Anyone remember what cylinder I remove the plug to drain the excessive oil? Thanks. Jeff Classic IV 912UL KTZR

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
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Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:21 am Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

Which brings up my next question. Has anyone come up with a workable idea  to stop the siphoning of oil into the engine from the oil tank or is that not  possible? I know the tank is too high on the Kitfox and it is out of  position for the Rotax 912/914. If you let the aircraft sit for a month  (ie: vacation) you sure run a risk of the oil seeping past the rings. I had  thought about a valve but figured I would probably forget to open it. 

                                                   Dick Maddux

                                                   Pensacola,Fl (hot !)



Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

  [quote][b]

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:10 am Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

siphoning ? Not likely.

Or just thin viscosity oil that creeps past the oil pump?? I would 

expect that it would occur after a hot shutdown?

  On these hot days is the correct viscosity used?

Paul

==========



At 05:18 AM 7/2/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Which brings up my next question. Has anyone come up with a workable 

idea to stop the siphoning of oil into the engine from the oil tank 

or is that not possible? I know the tank is too high on the Kitfox 

and it is out of position for the Rotax 912/914. If you let the 

aircraft sit for a month (ie: vacation) you sure run a risk of the 

oil seeping past the rings. I had thought about a valve but figured 

I would probably forget to open it.

                                                  Dick Maddux

                                                  Pensacola,Fl (hot !)





----------

Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient 

<http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007>used cars.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

Paul,



This was my experience for the most part.  I found that If I would do the 

prop thing a few yours after a flight, the oil would stay in the tank ready 

to go for at least a week.  I think it is the reduced viscosity of the oil 

when hot that results in the majority of the siphoning.  Of course what Dick 

mentions, the high location of the oil tank is the real culprit.



Lowell

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

Whaddya mean "sit for a month...vacation" ? I'm going on a 4-day  

vacation, and, not being able to make arrangements for someone to  

drive my tiny motorhome to the vacation site, I'm driving the  

motorhome, and towing the plane with me. It's a 150 or so mile trip,  

but I ain't gonna let my baby sit at home, and I'm not gonna pitch a  

tent this time, so that means tow the 'fox to the nearest field, and  

fly every chance I get, while enjoying the comforts of the MH while  

there. If this works out, I may even do the same thing for  

Oshkosh...tow the plane, and enjoy the "hard roof" that the motorhome  

offers. It was a pain in the ass trying to recall just how to fold  

the wings, load the trailer, etc., but I endured, and tomorrow I'll  

head out for Sharps Strip (2E2), and have a flying weekend. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/541 hrs

do not archive



On Jul 2, 2008, at 7:18 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Which brings up my next question. Has anyone come up with a  

 workable idea to stop the siphoning of oil into the engine from the  

 oil tank or is that not possible? I know the tank is too high on  

 the Kitfox and it is out of position for the Rotax 912/914. If you  

 let the aircraft sit for a month (ie: vacation) you sure run a risk  

 of the oil seeping past the rings. I had thought about a valve but  

 figured I would probably forget to open it.

                                                  Dick Maddux

                                                  Pensacola,Fl (hot !)



 Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient  

 used cars.

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- 

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

Lynn,

  My Kitfox is located in my hanger at an airpark in Fl. I can fly it  every day if I want to but it is too hot now so I have escaped to my cabin  in the N.C. mountains for a week or so. No place to tow my Kitfox up here. We  have lots of mountains(ok, hills for you guys living in the Rockies) and  very few airports. When I do come up here with the airplane,I will fly it  up. Besides,I will fly it when I get back.I am not having much luck getting a  hanger up here. Like most of the US,hangers are at a premium!

  Lowell , thanks for your input . I had not thought of letting the oil  cool then pumping it back into the tank prior to periods of non use. That should  slow the siphoning action a bit. I'll give it a shot

  By the way I read an article in the defunct SkyStar magazine about  the siphoning effect in the Kitfox with the 912. It offered no solution other  then to always check the oil and "burp" the tank. It too said the high oil tank  position was the problem. Wish we had a magazine like that still available with  "tips" & "techniques" but then I guess that's what this email form is  for.

   Thanks for the replies !

                                                  Dick Maddux

                                                  Fox4-1200

                                                  Pensacola,Fl



Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

I'm lucky enough to have a hangar 4 miles from home. After putting  

the plane on the trailer last night, I had second thoughts about  

having to untrailer it, fly for 4 days at the most, then load it up  

again, and come home, untrailer it, and breathe a sigh of relief.  

When I hear of guys who have to keep theirs at home and trailer it to  

fly, I've got a lot of respect for their stick-to-it-ivness. The only  

time I've had to trailer mine so far is to be weighed, and it rained  

the whole 36 mile round-trip. Having to tape up the t'deck hole was a  

bear! This weekend is supposed to clear, so  maybe I'l get lucky.  

I'll still tape the big hole shut, but I won't be quite so anal about  

keeping the raindrops out, just the road dust or possible mist.

And if it wasn't for having to get a ride from the campsite to the  

flying field each and every time I wanted to fly, I'd just fly the  

plane up there and pitch a tent. When my daughter bailed out at the  

last minute (from driving the motorhome up there), I decided to  

trailer the plane, instead of leaving it home....after all, we are  

celebrating "Independence" Day, aren't we? And I'm just stubborn  

enough to be totally independent of others when I have to. : )



And for those that haven't trailered their Kitfoxs yet, it's not that  

big a chore, and it can be done alone, but it sure is nice to not  

have to do it....especially when the weather plays a part.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/541 hrs

do not archive



On Jul 3, 2008, at 8:13 AM, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn,

  My Kitfox is located in my hanger at an airpark in Fl. I can fly  

 it every day if I want to but it is too hot now so I have escaped  

 to my cabin in the N.C. mountains for a week or so. No place to tow  

 my Kitfox up here. We have lots of mountains(ok, hills for you guys  

 living in the Rockies) and very few airports. When I do come up  

 here with the airplane,I will fly it up. Besides,I will fly it when  

 I get back.I am not having much luck getting a hanger up here. Like  

 most of the US,hangers are at a premium!

  Lowell , thanks for your input . I had not thought of letting the  

 oil cool then pumping it back into the tank prior to periods of non  

 use. That should slow the siphoning action a bit. I'll give it a shot

  By the way I read an article in the defunct SkyStar magazine about  

 the siphoning effect in the Kitfox with the 912. It offered no  

 solution other then to always check the oil and "burp" the tank. It  

 too said the high oil tank position was the problem. Wish we had a  

 magazine like that still available with "tips" & "techniques" but  

 then I guess that's what this email form is for.

   Thanks for the replies !

                                                 Dick Maddux

                                                 Fox4-1200

                                                 Pensacola,Fl



 Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient  

 used cars.

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- 

 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

May I ask what kind of trailer you use Lynn? I have towed my Kitfox a few

miles using the towbar attachment but am reluctant to put too many miles on

the plane's tiny bearings. I plan to trailer it now on a 21ft car trailer,

with ramps and an electric winch to get it up to the platform. But I had the

trailer for other reasons, so I am wondering how other Kitfoxers "trailer"

their planes around.(?)



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

(back from the trip) I used a boat trailer, modified for a wider  

"stance" so that the planes' wheels will sit into a sort of "v", with  

the back side of the v hinged to form a ramp for loading. I can send  

you pictures if you'd like.



Man, I'd much rather fly the plane where it needs to go, I'll tell  

you that! After the 160-some mile trip, unloading, flying for just  

one day (1-hour trips for 3 kids), and then flying home because I  

wanted to change the oil, leaving it home and getting a flight back  

up there with a friend, hooking up the trailer and driving back home,  

I'm whipped. Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that before coming home, a  

guy at the field (2E2) with a Citabria offered to take me up and let  

me fly it a bit, then do some aerobatics with me...how could I  

refuse? After he let me do some 45° banking turns, just to get me  

used to the feel of the g-forces, we did (him flying) some 90° turns,  

a roll, a loop, some wing-overs, and the Grand Finale...a 3-turn  

spin, exiting exactly in the same heading as entry. I kept my lunch,  

but the forces were tremendous...4 G's on the loop, he said...I think  

that's where we got the 4 G's. Man, I think my neck is shorter than I  

started the day with.



(I shortened my part of the weekend due to too damn many barking dogs  

at a campground, and screaming kids.)



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/545 hrs





On Jul 3, 2008, at 1:07 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:



[quote] 

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>



 May I ask what kind of trailer you use Lynn? I have towed my Kitfox  

 a few

 miles using the towbar attachment but am reluctant to put too many  

 miles on

 the plane's tiny bearings. I plan to trailer it now on a 21ft car  

 trailer,

 with ramps and an electric winch to get it up to the platform. But  

 I had the

 trailer for other reasons, so I am wondering how other Kitfoxers  

 "trailer"

 their planes around.(?)



 Bob Brennan

 1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kitfoxnick

Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 33
Location: Northern Maryland

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Hydraulic Lock

Hi Bob here is a pic of my trailer.  This is a Skystar trailer the original builder put together.  I'm currently working on a air ride suspension for the tail.  It seems that the tail feels every jolt as I'm towing with 3/4 ton truck.  If I was towing with a softer suspension like a car I don't think it will be that bad.  I noticed your in Wrightsville I'm about a half hour south of Red Lion Just over the MD line.  Your welcome to come down and get a closer look.  What Field will you be flying from?

Nick W.

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_________________
Nick Weiskopf
Norrisville, MD
kitfox !V-1200
Rotax 912ul

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:52 am Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

That is a very neat trailer Nick, perfect for towing a Kitfox any distance.

I'll be sticking with my car-trailer; which is overkill but I have it, it's

registered and paid for, and I have many other uses for it. I was just

curious what other Kitfoxers were using, since a big attraction of the

Kitfox is the folding wings and *no* hanger fees.



I have a small farm in Wrightsville with a shed (enough room for several

boats and an airplane, not most people's concept of a "shed"!) where I store

my Kitfox. I plan to fly out of McGinness Airport(8N7) which is just across

the river in Columbia. George McGinness is 94 now and a great guy, he keeps

the airport open and ready but he says it's been 4 months since anybody has

been there. So if any of you local Kitfoxers get the chance - he'd love the

business! And it might just save yet another great old grass strip from

going to developers...



I was curious if anyone out there tows their Kitfox on its own wheels using

the towbar? I know the manual says "never more than 10 miles" and the tires

say "not for highway use" and the local DOT has *no* idea how to legally tow

an airplane as a "trailer"... it still seems to be a neat alternative

especially since McGinness is only 5 miles from me.



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

peteohms

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

I had my first taste of hydraulic lock today.  I was away for 2 weeks and 

this am I went to turn over my 912 and the prop would not budge.  Someone 

suggested putting a shut off valve in the oil line to prevent the drain 

down.  What if 2 valves were put in line parallel and one was electrically 

operated to open when you start your engine and the other was a manual valve 

that you would open by hand before flight.  That would prevent taking off 

with the oil shut off.  Anyone know it this would be feasable?



Pete

Kitfox III 912ul

Hell Paso, TX

_________________
Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

Not a bad idea to add a valve. Just be sure it is a full flow one. 

Meaning the flow path is the same as thje ID of the hose. You wont 

have much luck finding an electric one that is full flow. But give it a try.

Paul

================



At 05:44 PM 7/13/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<apeterchristensen(at)sbcglobal.net>



I had my first taste of hydraulic lock today.  I was away for 2 

weeks and this am I went to turn over my 912 and the prop would not 

budge.  Someone suggested putting a shut off valve in the oil line 

to prevent the drain down.  What if 2 valves were put in line 

parallel and one was electrically operated to open when you start 

your engine and the other was a manual valve that you would open by 

hand before flight.  That would prevent taking off with the oil shut 

off.  Anyone know it this would be feasable?



Pete

Kitfox III 912ul

Hell Paso, TX

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

Pete,



I have thought a lot about this over the years and even made a device that 

would minimize back flow but never installed it because it would have meant 

cutting the oil pick-up tube in the tank and I never could get myself to do 

that.  The thought did occur to me as I read your post, that my oil pressure 

would routinely rise to operating pressure during cranking.  I used the 

method devised by Clint Bazzill where I would crank for several seconds with 

the ignition off then crank with the ignition on for a quick start.  If a 

pilot was disciplined enough to carefully monitor the oil pressure during 

initial cranking, forgetting to open a valve would not be an issue as it 

would be immediately obvious.



Then with most runways a distanced away from the start area, I suspect there 

would never be a chance to take to the air with no oil flow.  I suspect for 

the most part the preflight valve check would be engine saving rather than 

bacon saving.



Lowell



---

brianm(at)snolab.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

Hi



I have just installed a 912 and haven't experienced the hydraulic lock yet.

I have been following some of this thread and was wondering if anyone has

given any thought to installing a check valve in the hose from the crank

case bottom. This would stop the return flow of oil from the reservoir to

the crank case.

Brian



--

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: Hydraulic Lock

Brian,



The problem with a check valve is that the oil flow direction during the 

siphoning is in the same direction as the oil flow during operation - from 

the tank through the pick up tube, past the oil pump and into the crank 

case.  The oil return line is above the oil level in the tank and won't 

reverse flow.



Regarding hydraulic lock.  I never experienced it in nine years of flying my 

Model IV.  I have no idea why some do and some don't.



Lowell



---

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