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Dwight Early

Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Indiana

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

Hi guys, I have recently purchased a Kitfox 1 because I had to give up my medical and am now flying light sport.



My question is, should the stick be hard to push to the left and right while flying. It feels real heavy which leaves me to be concerned that something might break from the force that I have to apply or is this normal. On the ground the stick moves forward and sideways with no drag. I might add that it has balancers in the center of the aileron facing forward.

I have nothing to go on except my 150F and my Sonerai did not have these forces. 

I did not get any kind of build books or paperwork to reference from, so your answerers are valued. Thanks

_________________
Dwight Early
N701EF
Zenith CH701/Revmaster
Daleville, In

peteohms

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

Dwight,



I feel the same way about my Kitfox III.  I flew a Kitfox IV once and it was 

very light on the stick.  I guess it's all in what you get used to.  I have 

30 or so hours since I bought my III so I am getting used to the stick feel.



Pete

Hell Paso, TX

Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove gear

---

_________________
Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

Pete,

  Couldn't help but notice you are from Hell Paso, TX. We must live closer to each other than I thought cuz I tell my wife we live in Hell every summer. :>)

  We will be back to 110 degrees by Saturday...UGHHH

  Mesa, AZ



Pete Christensen <apeterchristensen(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Pete Christensen" 



Dwight,



I feel the same way about my Kitfox III. I flew a Kitfox IV once and it was 

very light on the stick. I guess it's all in what you get used to. I have 

30 or so hours since I bought my III so I am getting used to the stick feel.



Pete

Hell Paso, TX

Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove gear

---

rick(at)5mike3.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

So Dan,

 It would seen that all these years my wife has been  telling me to "go to Mesa, AZ" 

  

 Rick, Kitfox IV / 912ul / 50%

do not  archive

 [quote]   ---

peteohms

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

Dan, 

  

 Well, I was born in Phoenix and worked there for  years so I know what the "dry heat" is like. Bought my Fox in Buckeye and flew  it back.  It's 90 as I type at 5pm here. Muggy.

  

 Pete

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove

Dwight Early

Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Indiana

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy stick for aileron's

 Something I just found out while flying a little while ago, when I use about a 1/4" to 1/2"of flaperon lever the ailerons are very lite to control and the nose seems to be in a more level position and the constant force I have to apply on back elevator goes away. Is my new toy rigged wrong?

_________________
Dwight Early
N701EF
Zenith CH701/Revmaster
Daleville, In

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

Rick,

  That makes perfect sence to me. ha!

  Dan



Rick Frederick <rick(at)5mike3.com> wrote:

  [quote]        So Dan,

  It would seen that all these years my wife has been telling me to "go to Mesa, AZ" 

   

  Rick, Kitfox IV / 912ul / 50%

do not archive

  [quote]  ---

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy stick for aileron's

 	  Dwight Early wrote: 	
		   Something I just found out while flying a little while ago, when I use about a 1/4" to 1/2"of flaperon lever the ailerons are very lite to control and the nose seems to be in a more level position and the constant force I have to apply on back elevator goes away. Is my new toy rigged wrong? 	




Dwight,

Maybe not wrong, just a little innovation.  Your flaperons may be rigged with a little negative flap (up past zero degrees) with the handle full down.  This would cause the flight characteristic you described.



Some people rig their flaperons this way on purpose to be able to spill a little bit of lift for various reasons, one of which is to gain a little cruise speed.



The nose should start to pitch down as the flaps are pulled into the positive (down past zero degrees position).



I would say you have solved your "Heavy stick" problem.  You may want to check the rigging and may or may not decide to change it.



For what it's worth, If I purchased a home built airplane of any kind the first two things I would do is reweigh it and make a new weight and balance form, then I would check the rigging.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:23 am Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

Although, the aileron forces are somewhat heavier than the pitch forces on 

the early Kitfoxes, it shouldn't be so much that it would be cause for 

alarm.  I would suggest that you carefully and thoroughly check each fitting 

for smooth operation from the stick all the way to the flaperon connection. 

Lube them all with appropriate oil.  There are quite a few of them so don't 

miss any.  Also, ensure your flaperons move freely and smoothly and lube 

appropriately.  Do a complete weight and balance to ensure you're in the 

envelope.  Then finally, obtain the rigging instructions and ensure you're 

set up the way the factory suggests.  It sounds like something may be 

binding.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 380+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: fox5flyer [fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net]

I would suggest that you carefully and thoroughly check each fitting 

 for smooth operation from the stick all the way to the flaperon connection.


	


Yes but Dwight writes that the flaperons are quite free from drag when on the ground. If they are so heavy in flight, it would mean that, due to the drag, something bends and create greater resistance. But what? I can't figure it out The only thing that would be under pressure due to the airstream is the teflon bearing on the side of the fuselage. But I don't see how that can create the resitance he is talking about.



In my model 3, at cruise speed, the flaperons are somewhat stiff but ... I like that. We know that flaperons are super efficient due to the airstream pressed on the top of them by the wing. But isn't that rather an advantage? In turbulent air, I like to feel that the plane responds quickly to my corrective input.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

I'm not familiar with the Model  1, but you say "balancers in the  

center of the aileron...."   Is this the only location of the Model 1  

balancers? My Model IV uses one on each side further out, and some  

models even use four....2 each side.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/547+ hrs





On Jul 16, 2008, at 4:58 PM, Dwight Early wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <flywarrior2000(at)yahoo.com>



 Hi guys, I have recently purchased a Kitfox 1 because I had to give  

 up my medical and am now flying light sport.



 My question is, should the stick be hard to push to the left and  

 right while flying. It feels real heavy which leaves me to be  

 concerned that something might break from the force that I have to  

 apply or is this normal. On the ground the stick moves forward and  

 sideways with no drag. I might add that it has balancers in the  

 center of the aileron facing forward.

 I have nothing to go on except my 150F and my Sonerai did not have  

 these forces.

 I did not get any kind of build books or paperwork to reference  

 from, so your answerers are valued. Thanks



 --------

 Dwight Early

 Kitfox 1/532

 Cessna 150F

 Daleville, In





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193200#193200

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

FlyboyTR

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Mobile, Alabama

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Heavy stick for aileron's

[/quote]

Yes but Dwight writes that the flaperons are quite free from drag when on the ground. If they are so heavy in flight, it would mean that, due to the drag, something bends and create greater resistance. But what? I can't figure it out The only thing that would be under pressure due to the airstream is the teflon bearing on the side of the fuselage. But I don't see how that can create the resitance he is talking about.

<pre>[/quote]



I have an ongoing issue with the teflon bearings you mentioned.  If I don't keep them clean and lubed my stick pressures will increase while in flight (not on the ground).  This is a very "tight fit" on my plane.  



However, if the stick pressure is reduced by the application of a little flaperon...I would say the ailerons are in need of some adjustment.  They could have been set that way to overcome some other maladjustment in the rigging.  There have been some great suggestions made so far!  Hope you find the answer.



Travis

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_________________
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
www.enotam.net (My Flying Info Website)

Dwight Early

Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Indiana

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

Lynn, That is why I mentioned the balancers, because I am unsure where  they are suppose to be. They are about even with the strut. 



--- On Thu, 7/17/08, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:

 [quote]From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

Subject: Re: Heavy stick for aileron's

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 8:49 AM



[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>  I'm not familiar with the Model  1, but you say "balancers in the   center of the aileron...."   Is this the only location of the Model 1   balancers? My Model IV uses one on each side further out, and some   models even use four....2 each side.  Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200 Status: flying w/547+ hrs     On Jul 16, 2008, at 4:58 PM, Dwight Early wrote:  > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dwight Early"   > <flywarrior2000(at)yahoo.com> > > Hi guys, I have recently purchased a Kitfox 1 because I had to give   > up my medical and am now flying light sport. > > My question is, should the stick be hard to push to the left and   > right while flying. It feels real heavy which leaves me to be   > concerned that something might break from the force that I have to   > apply or is this normal. On the ground the stick moves forward and   > sideways with no drag. I might add that it has balancers in the   > center of the aileron facing forward. > I have nothing to go on except my 150F and my Sonerai did not have   > these forces. > I did not get any kind of build books or paperwork to reference   > from, so your answerers are valued. Thanks > > -------- > Dwight Early > Kitfox 1/532 > Cessna 150F > Daleville, In > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193200#193200 > > > > > > > > > >            [quote][b]

_________________
Dwight Early
N701EF
Zenith CH701/Revmaster
Daleville, In

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Heavy stick for aileron's

The weights are flaperon mass balances. The purpose are to prevent 

flutter. They're very common in aircraft design, and often hidden in the 

the structure. In the Kitfox they're external. 



The block of white material where the flaperon tube goes into the cabin 

is nylon. It should not be tight, or snug even. Just a close fit without slop.

If it is snug, the you should get this rectified. Nylon changes size due to 

temp and it may if to tight end up binding as the temperature changes.

If you look up the material specs on nylon, it is considered a material 

which can be used as a bearing surface without lubrication.



In my plane the stick forces in roll are higher than the stick forces in 

pitch, however that said it isn't something I noticed at all when flying 

the plane. I flew in Ron Liebmann's older model Kitfox and as I recall

his stick forces were essentially the same.  



Regards,

Jeff



N85AE Series 5/IO-240B

jconnell(at)fmwildblue.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

I have a Kitfox-II and found the ailerons were  heavy too.

  

 I drilled a small hole in each bearing of both  ailerons and de-burred the holes.  I could then use the grease gun that is  used to lubricate the tip bearing on chain saw blades.  The grease made all  the difference in the world.

  

 Joe Connell

 Kitfox-II N62JK

  

   [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

Maybe the early planes had them in a different position than my  

IV....somebody with "early savvy" will probably come forward and set  

us all straight.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/547+ hrs





On Jul 17, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Jodi Munday wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn, That is why I mentioned the balancers, because I am unsure  

 where  they are suppose to be. They are about even with the strut.

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

Hey, wait a minute.....I seem to recall the early Speedsters required  

slitting the flaperon skin (I believe) all around the hinge  

locations, and then covering with fabric. I was told not to do this  

per the infamous Frank Miller of Skystar, so I did not do it. But  

maybe mentioning this 'do not do" procedure will wake somebody up to  

other procedures that may have been suggested for tight/tight flaperons.



My flaperon bearings came with the lube hole already  

drilled...suggested lube is LPS #1, I think (can't find the reference  

in my manual right now).



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: flying w/547+ hrs





On Jul 17, 2008, at 11:50 AM, Joe & Jan Connell wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have a Kitfox-II and found the ailerons were heavy too.



 I drilled a small hole in each bearing of both ailerons and de- 

 burred the holes.  I could then use the grease gun that is used to  

 lubricate the tip bearing on chain saw blades.  The grease made all  

 the difference in the world.



 Joe Connell

 Kitfox-II N62JK



 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 forums.matronics.com_- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 contribution_- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: FlyboyTR [flyboytr(at)bellsouth.net]

 I have an ongoing issue with the teflon bearings you mentioned.

.. oops! As Jeff says, it is a nylon bearing, Travis. My mistake.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   If I don't keep them clean and lubed my stick pressures will increase while in flight

Very strange because if, as Jeff says, nylon is subject to heat and humidity, it doesn't require any lubrification. I know it not from aviation but from yachting since it is much used as rudder bearing. It is maintenance free.
	




Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

peteohms

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

My name is Pete and I have a confession.  I have been flying my Kitfox III 

without the nylon bearings.  It looks like these bearings were attached to 

the hatch cover.  Until now I figured they were unnecessary since mine are 

broken off.  How can I be made to see the error of my ways and be accepted 

back to the flock?

Pete

Hell Paso, TX

Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove gear



---

_________________
Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Heavy stick for aileron's

The early models had no balancing weights.  I don't recall when the thinking 

changed, but the service letter is dated Aug 1992 so I suspect that the 

Models I through III had no balancing weights in the original kits.  In 

Euope, the governing agency required balanced flaperons even in the early 

models so that was done to get the airplanes legal to fly there.  We had a 

post recently regarding rods coming out of the leading edge area of the 

flaperons.  That was the recommended fix. as I understand it.



The Speedster, because of the light aerobatic capabilities, recommended 

splitting the flaperon skin mid span and covering the gap with fabric tape. 

This was to reduce hinge load as the wing flexed during high stress flight. 

In cruise, the flaperon would flex with the wing, but in extreme flaperon 

deflection during high wing loading situations, it was felt that the 

flaperon would not flex at the same rate, putting excessive stresses on the 

hinges.



It is my understanding that in later Speedster models, the split flaperon 

was no longer required as field expereince determined it was not necessary.



Someone recently posted a photocopy of a page of instructions related to the 

installation (retrofit) of mass balance weights on earlier models.  I 

believe it was printed in the Kitfox Times or a newsletter.  I can't find 

it, but it did specify that the (single) weight be on the outboard end of 

each flaperon.  This, of course, applies to the larger flaperon weight 

standard through the model IV with the exception of the Speedster which had 

two (smaller) weights on each flaperon, one on each side of the split skin. 

Exactly why the new flaperon design uses two vs. the one without the split 

is not clear to me and as far as I know, no one knows just why the switch to 

two per wing.



For what it's worth, the Lancair I helped construct has fully balanced 

control surfaces excepting, of course, the flaps.  The ailerons are 

internal, long and slemder at the leading edge (forward of the hinge) 

similar to the rod in the european modification, but lead was used, or if 

necessary tungsten.  The elevator and rudder both have the weight in arms 

extending forward of the hinge line at the extreme ends opposite the control 

arms.  Also the elevator had an optional fitting similar to our weights with 

a lead mass on the end of a steel arm that rode within the tailcone.  This 

is typical of certified aircraft as well.  These puppies are fast airplanes 

where flutter would be disasterous in no time at all.  The only control 

surface where exact balance was mandated in the manual was the rudder.  The 

aileron and elevator were OK if the mass balance was equal to or exceeded 

slightly what was necessary to balance the control surface.  The balance 

determination was done on a horizonatal fixture that supported each control 

surface at the hinge line.



As was reported recently in one case, I suspect that if we checked our 

balance on the flaperons, we would find that we all are heavy on the mass 

balance side of equal.



If anyone has thoughts on this, particularly you engineer types, I would 

like to learn more about this issue.  Mark and I are in the process of 

suppying exact copies the single weights shaped to fit the symmetrical 

flaperon as they are no longer available elsewhere.



Lowell



---

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