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gmcjetpilot
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170
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 Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: IR to ER alternator |
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Bob:
I didn't do ANYTHING to deserve your demand for me to
"go away". It's just not going to happen. I have not
engaged you or said one word about you. Please stop
harassing me. I didn't say anything wrong technically,
personally or controversial in any way. Your comments are
not constructive and just mean Sir.
I replied to a Gents post asking for opinions on "IR to ER
Mod" that I knew about, having done this mod on a friends
alternator. It's not about YOU. It is about converting IR to
ER alternator mod. Do you have any comment about the
IR to ER alternator mods? If not what is the problem?
I DID suggest he consider using the IR ND alternator as it
was designed, leave it alone, as is with out chopping it all
up, spending more time and money on the modification
and an ER. Is that a problem? Using IR is a valid
consideration. It saves cost, hassle, retains the thermal
protection that IR's have, which ER's don't have. Why
butcher a 2008 alternator back to the 1970's?
I talked to Matt about this situation with you. I agreed not to
argue with you. You are out of line here, accusing me of
saying I called anyone a liar is a total miss representation
of what I wrote........
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I did not call you or any one a liar.
In the PAST any negative story about IR alternators was
accepted and repeated with out any challenge on this
forum. I read them. There was no lie, just classic hanger
flying. I'm happy to say that the reports of service issues
are more factual now. However BOB you say you are all
about Science.
As I read about these stories of OV with IR I was
concerned (because I fly with one). I also questioned the
vagueness of the stories. I knew these alternators are
very reliable on my plane and others, Lexus, Acura, Honda,
tractors and forklifts. The stories did not make sense. What
does the electronics on a Lexus cost? Auto manufactures
have a vested interest to avoid OV. This is not new.
Stories of IR alternators allegedly destroying $30,000
panels where void of any details, facts: type / model of
alternator, person, place, type of plane, N-number, what
failed and why? That's not scientific is it Bob.
As the moderator Bob you let them go with out challenge,
and as a self proclaimed man of "Science", that lack of
evidence or data did not bother you? If I said something as
unsubstantiated as B&C regulators destroyed a friend of a
friend's plane, you would yell bloody hell for absolute proof.
You can't go on hearsay and rumor. However in the last
two years since I started to question it, reports are better.
You go with what you know, but let us "experimental"
aircraft builders experiment and explore improving IR.
What skin is it off your nose?
Bob, I do a "REPEATABLE TEST" every time I fly my
airplane with an IR alternator, sometimes near FL180.
Me and my flying mates individually have as much as 15
years and many 1000's of hours of trouble free IR
alternator ops each, in kit planes. The results of my
repeatable IR test are always the same, awesome!
How may kit planes have you built and how many hours do
you fly a month? I am not saying you don't know what
you're talking about. I am saying I have had very good
experience with IR alternators as a builder & pilot, that's all.
My interest is in improving the adaptation, installation and
operation of IR alternators (ND in particular) in little planes.
You a
You take one word I say and make it 100% guarantee? No
Bob, that's a silly thing to say. You take something I or
others say to ridiculous extremes to discredit. It's not
going to work Bob.
Of the reports of OV with IR ND's where the pilot was able
to note the voltage, 16-17 volts is common, but some times
its less, some times it must have been more. Unfortunately
not all pilots are able to note the actual voltage.
In 2 - 3 yrs of really taking a hard look at IR, talking to pilots,
manufactures and reading the web, following up with
emails to get more detailed info, I found two cases where
damage happened from an OV. Keep in mind the vast
number of IR units in service. One was pilot induced & the
problem was ignored, as he flew around for awhile. Another
case was an actual "lose screw". Stuff does happen. I
found some issues, and mitigating factors like improper
installation and pilot operation, as well as poor quality
rebuilds or aftermarket parts. I am just getting the word out.
Bob can you give me a 100% guarantee of failure free
operation (in writing) follow all your suggestions?
"vary rare" - Sorry for the lack of specific statistics and MTBF
(mean time between failures). BTW you don't have MTBF
data for airplane alternators with ER. You don't.
*******************************************************
I don't see the statistics showing IR Alts are prone to
catastrophic OV failure (but it can happen). However if
installed and operated properly the "statistics" are good.
Depending on the cost of your panel EXTRA OV protection
may be a wise idea for peace of mind. Some may choose
to install MOV's (varistor) on individual circuits to protect
them from transients, with CB's so you can reset. Bob calls
that the shotgun approach, I call it redundancy.
*******************************************************
What is "Modern"? technology developed in say last two
decades, use of IC chips with multi control functions and
fault detection and warning. If its based on 1970's or
older technology (ER) its not modern. ER technology is not
being developed or progressing in the auto industry; all the
development is for IR, except in large marine or industrial
applications, where paralleling and central control is involved.
Jet and turboprop is a different, starter/generators or constant
speed drive AC with inverters & battery chargers for DC. GA
aircraft are stuck some of the most gosh awful alternators
and regulators ever made. The after market like Plane Power
and B&C are correcting the poor GA aircraft electrical sys with
MODERN alternators. They of course are stuck with ER
because that is what was certified.
There are 10's of millions of IR ND alternators going 24/7
world wide in cars, trucks, tractors and industrial equipment
(and kit planes) with out issue. No OEM makes new ER
alternators under 100 amps today. IR alternators are more
common and easier to get in a pinch from auto parts
stores. Try getting a B&C alternator or voltage regulator
1,000 miles from home on Sunday = good luck..
If you're interested in helping me improve IR for aircraft
use, than you are welcomed to help, but please stop
insulting me. I am not a threat to you.
Do you think ER is the pinnacle and can not be improved
upon? Do you think IR will always be a poor second
choice? If the answer is yes fine, but its your preference.
It is very hard to make a "Scientific" case for one or the
other. They share 90% with each other anyway.
Cheers George
| Quote: | Time: 04:27:01 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net (nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net)>
Subject: Re: Re: IR to ER alternator mod
|
| Quote: | At 02:39 PM 7/20/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>Roger: I have seen that back a few years ago and
>studied it. I even talked by email to the Gent.
>
>If you are doing all this because you are worried that
>your internal regulator will go insane and melt your
>electrical system down, you are worrying too much. That
>story is way over blown and very rare.
|
>Over blown? Is that between humongous and
>gargantuan or just under bodacious . . . I forget.
>But even your words "very rare" says the risk is
>not zero.
(WHAT? MY GOSH? YOUR CROW BAR MUST HAVE
TRIPPED? YES RARE. LETS SEE YOUR ANALYTICAL
STATS? IR ALTS HAVE ACCUMULATED MORE HOURS
IN A WEEK (ALL VEHICLES) THAN ALL ER
ALTERNATORS IN SMALL GA PLANES (FACTORY OR
KIT) IN THE HISTORY OF AVIATION.)
>> In the cases where damage was
| Quote: | >done the pilot did a few things to make it happen.
|
>George, go away. You have ZERO evidence of
>that and your accusation is uncalled for.
>The evidence contrary to that statement is
>solid and inarguable which makes your statement
>tantamount to calling goodly numbers of folks
>liars.
(YOU ARE OUT OF LINE)
| Quote: | > Most
>failures of ND type alternator are usually not OV but
>they just stop working. When they do lose stable voltage
>regulation they generally top out in the 16-17 volt range.
|
>Maybe . . . but again, are you ready to offer
>100% coverage insurance for the ones that are not
>"generally" topping out at 17V?
(NO BOB, WHERE IS YOUR 100% GUARANTEE? YOU
ARE BEING SILLY. IT IS JUST AN OBSERVATION.)
| Quote: | > Most
>modern avionics can work on 10-30 volts all day long.
|
>But batteries don't. Lights don't. Contactors don't
>and how many OBAM aircraft are fitted only with
>"modern" avionics . . . and exactly when does "modern"
>kick in? 1985? 1996?
(BOB BOB, YOU HAVE TO READ THE MANUAL FOR
YOUR AVIONICS OR CALL THE MANUFACTURE, VERY
SIMPLE. ITS THERE IF YOU WANT TO LEARN.)
| Quote: | >In the event of say an unstable regulator, lower RPM,
|
>Okay, a fully fielded ND puts out full rated current
>at about 4500 shaft RPM. When running at cruise
>(2500 on engine) the alternator is spinning at about
>4x that. So if we want to get the alternator to be
>current limited to say 20A, we need to get it down to
>about 1500 RPM which puts the engine at less than
>idle. What kind of emergency operations procedure
>is that?
BOB YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT, THERE MY BE
LITTLE DIFFERENCE, BUT LOWER RPM WILL LOWER
PWR OUTPUT AT ANY RPM. ASSUMING VOLTAGE
REGULATOR IS NOT WORKING, RPM AND LOAD ARE
THE ONLY WAYS TO CONTROL VOLTAGE.
POWER VERSES RPM CURVE IS NOT FLAT, WITH
RESPECT. IT DOES START TO FLATTEN OUT AT 7000
TO 8000 RPM BUT LOWER RPM = LESS PWR. YES IN
FLIGHT ALT RPM IS ABOUT 6000 TO 8000 (3 TO 1 RATIO
NOT 4 TO 1). YES "RATED MIN" POWER IS AT 5000 RPM
(NOT 4500 RPM) BUT IT DOES INCREASE ABOVE RATED
BY ABOUT 5-7 AMPS FOR HIGHER RPM. SO LOWER
RPM DOES HAVE AFFECT ON POWER OUTPUT,
ALTERNATOR 101. BUT YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT ITS
SMALL AND NOT WORTH THE EFFORT, I AGREE.
| Quote: | >increase load (landing lights) and ideally you have a
>pull-able CB in the panel for you B-lead, pull CB, reduce
>elect load & land. No fear no dark and stormy night.
|
>But assuming that you can pull a b-lead breaker
>and bring the power back up, the alternator self-
>destructs.
YOU ARE DOING THIS BECAUSE ITS AN EMERGENCY
AND THE VOLTAGE IS LOW OR HIGH ABOVE THE
STANDARD SET VOLTAGE 14.3 - 14.5 VOLTS.
WE ASSUME THE ALTERNATOR IS SHOT. YOU ARE
NOT WORRIED ABOUT THE ALTERNATOR AT THIS
POINT. IF VOLTAGE IS TOO HIGH, WHICH COULD
POSSIBLY DAMAGE BATTERY OR AVIONICS, TO
HECK WITH THE ALTERNATOR, PULL THE B'LEAD CB.
THAT IS WHAT YOUR CROW BAR DOES.
IF THE ALTERNATOR IS DEAD PULLING THE CB WILL
DO NO DAMAGE, BUT MAY BE SAVE SOME SMALL
PARASITIC DRAIN THROUGH THE VOLTAGE
REGULATOR.
MANUAL CB DISCONNECT AVOIDS ACCIDENTAL
TRIPS THAT CAN HAPPEN WITH AUTOMATIC DEVICES
LIKE A CROW BAR, WHICH CAN RUIN A GOOD
ALTERNATOR. IT HAS HAPPENED MANY TIMES,
TURNING GOOD ALTERNATORS INTO TRASH, OUCH.
EVEN VAN'S AIRCRAFT BANNED THEM, OUCH X 2.
NO OFFENSE BOB.
**THE FIRST STEP** SHOULD BE TURNING THE ALT
SWITCH OFF, THAN PULL THE CB (B'LEAD). THE
ALT SWITCH (POWER TO IGN LEAD) MAY OR
MAY NOT TURN ALTERNATOR OFF, DEPENDING IF
THE VOLTAGE REGULATOR RESPONDS, WHICH IS
AFFECTED BY WHAT FAILED. REGARDLESS IF IT
SHUTS DOWN WITH ALT SW, PULL THE CB. YOU
CAN'T COUNT ON THE ALT SW (IGN PWR) TO
KILL THE ALTERNATOR.
ALSO YOU SHOULD NEVER USE THE ALT SWITCH TO
ROUTINELY TURN THE ALTERNATOR ON OR OFF
WHILE THE ENGINE IS RUNNING, IT WILL DAMAGE
THE ALTERNATOR. IN MY RESEARCH PROBLEMS
STARTED IN SEVERAL CASES WHEN THE PILOT
ELECTED TO PLAY SWITCH MONKEY AND CYCLE
THE ALT SW WHILE THE ALTERNATOR WAS UNDER
LOAD. IS THIS SCIENCE? WELL ITS MORE
ANECDOTAL BUT RELEVANT & SCIENTIFIC
OBSERVATION, CAUSE & AFFECT.
I HAVE NOT DUPLICATED THIS ON THE BENCH BOB,
REPEATABLY, BUT ITS A GOOD OBSERVATION. THIS
IS MY CONTRIBUTION TO "SCIENCE".
I HAVE DOCUMENTED THIS FAILURE. IF THERE IS
CHANCE ITS A PROBLEM DON'T DO IT.
FOR SOME REASONS PEOPLE LEARN ON A CESSNA
OR PIPER (FAA APPROVED MANUALS) TO NOT CYCLE
THE ALT SWITCH UNLESS THERE IS A NON NORMAL
CONDITION. HOWEVER HOME-BUILDERS FEEL THE
NEED TO THROW STITCHES THEY DON'T NEED TO.
MAKE IT SIMPLE, ALT 'ON' WITH BAT BEFORE ENGINE
START, ALT 'OFF' WITH BAT AFTER ENGINE SHUTDOWN.
THIS IS HOW IT WORKS IN THE CARS IT WAS THESE
ALTERNATORS WHERE DESIGNED FOR, ANOTHER
"SCIENTIFIC OBSERVATION" OR CORRELATION.
>Your advice is horse-hockey by the bucket-full
>George. Go away.
(YOU ARE BEING RUDE AND AWFUL)
| Quote: | >Also IR gives you a LO/Hi volt and fault warning light.
|
>Which is only a warning light as far as anyone can
>deduce from the lack of schematics to substantiate
>any claims to the contrary. It does nothing to
>actively shut down an alternator being driven by
>a failed regulator.
BOB THE FUNCTION OF THE IR ALTERNATOR
INDICATOR LIGHT (LIKE EVERY CAR HAS) IS WELL
ESTABLISHED, AND NO ONE SAID IT WOULD SHUT
THE ALTERNATOR DOWN AUTOMATICALLY.
BOB THIS INFO IS IN THE AUTO REPAIR MANUALS
FOR CARS AND ALTERNATORS. I RESEARCHED THIS.
YOU HAVE ASKED OR SAID THIS 20 TIMES BEFORE.
THROWING OUT QUESTIONS TO RAISE DOUBT WHEN
IT IS CLEAR YOU DON'T REALLY WANT TO LEARN, SO
ITS JUST A WASTE OF TIME. YOU WILL NEVER
AGREE THERE ARE NICE FEATURES WITH AN IR; YOU
JUST ACT LIKE ITS ALL BOGUS SMOKE & MIRRORS.
NIPPONDESNO AND THE ENTIRE AUTOMOTIVE ELECTRICAL
INDUSTRY ARE IDIOTS, RIGHT.
BOB I GAVE YOU A BLOCK SCHEMATIC OF A TYPICAL IC.
DID YOU UNDERSTAND IT?
IF YOU DON'T GET IT, THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT'S BAD?
EVEN IF YOU HAD THE DETAILED ENGINEERING OF THE
DIGITAL LOGIC CIRCUITS IN THESE IC CHIPS, WOULD
YOU KNOW WHAT IT MEANT? THEY ARE COMPLICATED
NO DOUBT, VERY SOPHISTICATED. IT IS MORE THAN
TWO TRANSISTOR, DIODE AND A FEW RESISTORS.
I SUGGEST BUILDERS INSTALLING IR ALTERNATORS
USE THE INDICATOR LIGHT, AND ANY ADDITIONAL
HI/LO VOLT IDIOT LIGHT AND VOLT-METER THEY
WANT IF DESIRED.
THE "INDICATOR LIGHT" ALSO ACTS AS A FAULT
LIGHT LIKE TROUBLE CODES ON A CARS COMPUTER.
IT DOES NOT GIVE OUT A CODE BUT WHEN IT
ILLUMINATES, IT MEANS THERE IS A FAULT CAUSING
THE VOLTAGE TO EXCEED SET VOLTAGE (HI/LO). YOU
CAN EVEN HAVE NORMAL VOLTAGE AND GET THE
INDICATOR LIGHT AS A SOFT FAULT.
THE IC CHIP IN IR REGULATORS ARE SMALL MICRO
PROCESSORS. YOU JUST DON'T GET THE FACT
THESE REGULATORS HAVE FAULT/CONTROL LOGIC.
THERE ARE CHEAP AFTERMARKET IR THAT ARE NOT
MADE TO FACTORY SPECS OR HAVE AN IC CHIP, BEWARE.
YOU WANT TO VERIFY THE BRAND OF REGULATOR.
YOU WANT ONE WITH THE ORIGINAL ASIC DESIGN.
ONE WAY IS TO BUY OEM ND PARTS OR VICTORY
FROM TAIWAN. I'LL BE GLAD TO HELP ANY ONE OFF
LIST SO BOB DOES NOT GET MAD.
>. . . and oh yes, if the designers included ov warning
>in their product, could it be that they also believe
>the risk for their product to malfunction is not zero?
>. . . or do you think they included that feature just
>to placate me?
>Go away George. I will not have you trolling this
>List for acolytes in the Cult of the Infallible ND.
>Go start your own List.
>Bob . . .
(I AM HAPPY HERE BUT THANKS FOR THE
SUGGESTION. IF YOU WANT TO BE AN EXPERT
IN IR ALTERNATORS YOU CAN HAVE IT BUT YOU
DON'T SUPPORT ITS USE AS OF NOW.)
[quote][b]
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raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: IR to ER alternator |
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Go away, George.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
"Hope for the best,
but prepare for the worst."
do not archive
---
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nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: IR to ER alternator |
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Hmmm . . . got the message first privately but I see
George posted a copy to the list too. Here was
my sniped reply:
At 03:28 PM 7/26/2008 -0700, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bob:
I didn't do ANYTHING to deserve your demand for me to
"go away". It's just not going to happen. I have not
engaged you or said one word about you. Please stop
harassing me.
|
But you keep dispensing the same bad information . . .
sprinkled with enough good information to give
yourself credibility. Just review the postings
I've made in your honor sir and be reminded of
the behaviors that illuminated your dishonor . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/gmcjetpilot.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/The_Truth_about_Crowbar_OV_Protection.pdf
| Quote: | I didn't say anything wrong technically,
personally or controversial in any way. Your comments are
not constructive and just mean Sir.
|
Soft regulator failures that limit to 16-17 volts are
a figment of your imagination. Recommending pilot
intervention in an OV condition by reducing rpm,
added loads an hoping that a b-lead breaker is
bad design and equally bad advice to a neophyte
airplane builder that comes here to get solid
information.
I'm not mean but I am insistent. Your design
goals are not consistent with good practice and
you've repeatedly demonstrated an unwillingness
or inability to carry on a detailed design
review in which logic and science prevail.
This is not an open forum and you're not being
harassed. You're simply being asked to take
your advice elsewhere. Probably 95% of the
OBAM aircraft licensed each year have no
features offered by this forum or my website.
That's a pretty fertile ground George.
Just imagine how many folks will be impressed
with your secret existence, the alphabet soup
out the wazoo behind your name and the confidence
with which you dispense information about
things you have not experienced and cannot
demonstrate.
Go away George.
Bob . . .
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rdunhamtn(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: IR to ER alternator |
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George C
This is Bob's house.
You are a guest.
He asked you to go away.
In polite society C that is enough to make one go away.
Rodney in Tennessee
Unabashed Nuckollhead
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. Get started. [quote][b]
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