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ronwasson

Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 30

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes , Insurance, fast card are all in order.  My question is if my son, who hold a private license,  can be in the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10 eyes to spot traffic for me.

steve.fox(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Pretty sure the answer is your son will not be permitted to fly in your back seat during show formations.

 



On Jul 21, 2008, at 5:59 PM, ronwasson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

My question is if my son, who hold a private license,  can be in the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10 eyes to spot traffic for me.

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

I for one am VERY interested in what the reply to this question will be,

seeing that the Experimental Exhibition Category itself says that no one

is allowed to fly in such an aircraft unless they are categorized as a

"Required Crew Member".  



Thus... If he can not fly in there for the formation.. The question

would be "why not"?  If someone is foolish enough to say: "Because he is

not a Required Crew Member", then that opens Pandora's Box as to just

what a Required Crew Member really is, and that FOR SURE is NEVER going

to be that nice young babe you met last night that you promised to take

for a ride....   Is it?   



Personally... I would answer it this way:  



If the freaking Blue Angels can take any Tom/Dick or Harry up for a ride

in their two seat F-18, including their participation in formation

flight, I do believe Mr. Wasson's Private Pilot Son can sit in the

backseat of the aircraft and do anything he likes other than operate the

flight controls of the aircraft while in formation flight.  



Answering it any other way than that requires an explanation... And boy

OH BOY.....I do not think ANYONE wants to go there, but hey, I've been

wrong before.  



Mark Bitterlich



N50YK (As in: "Back Seats?  BACK SEATS? We don't NEED no stinkin BACK

SEATS!") 



--

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Ron, 



 In WAVERED airspace - the answer is no.   During the arrival show into

Oshkosh - he can ride in the back, as this arrival is NOT during wavered

airspace.



You can talk directly to the FAA, and ask for a waver during a show..  You

can guess how that will go...  We will be asking the FAA's permission on Wed

to allow additional crew for the big mass formation for 4 planes - mission

safety being the reason, we HOPE they will grant these.  To your point,

because we will have >50 planes in the air, I am asking for a spotter in the

backseat of the Flight Leads.



Mark - no the blue's don't take riders in waivered airspace..   before and

after, but not during..



So, just to be clear, your son is ok for the arrival show on Monday ( we

will depart from West Bend ) , not during the week.. And of course, he can

sit in the back if groups go up before and after the waivered airspace is

up..



David



On 7/21/08 5:59 PM, "ronwasson" <ronwasson(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes , Insurance,

 fast card are all in order.  My question is if my son, who hold a private

 license,  can be in the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10 eyes to

 spot traffic for me.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194219#194219

bu131(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Another pair of eyes is priceless

Your son is a crewmember 

Andres 

---

flushjohnson(at)charter.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

I don't think the FAA will allow in waivered airspace ( air show only) other 

times will be OK

---

ronwasson

Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 30

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Ok  Thanks  for the info.   I will watch this one from the ground for  

a change. Hearing  50 Yak's  in formation is much better than flying  

in it and only seeing your leader. Must agree with you about the FAA  

being not about safety but hard and fast rules.

On Jul 21, 2008, at 6:12 PM, David McGirt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Ron,

 In WAVERED airspace - the answer is no.   During the arrival show into

 Oshkosh - he can ride in the back, as this arrival is NOT during  

 wavered

 airspace.

 You can talk directly to the FAA, and ask for a waver during a  

 show..  You

 can guess how that will go...  We will be asking the FAA's  

 permission on Wed

 to allow additional crew for the big mass formation for 4 planes -  

 mission

 safety being the reason, we HOPE they will grant these.  To your  

 point,

 because we will have >50 planes in the air, I am asking for a  

 spotter in the

 backseat of the Flight Leads.

 Mark - no the blue's don't take riders in waivered airspace..    

 before and

 after, but not during..

 So, just to be clear, your son is ok for the arrival show on Monday  

 ( we

 will depart from West Bend ) , not during the week.. And of course,  

 he can

 sit in the back if groups go up before and after the waivered  

 airspace is

 up..

 David

 On 7/21/08 5:59 PM, "ronwasson" <ronwasson(at)mindspring.com> wrote:

> 

> <ronwasson(at)mindspring.com>

>

> I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes ,  

> Insurance,

> fast card are all in order.  My question is if my son, who hold a  

> private

> license,  can be in the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10  

> eyes to

> spot traffic for me.

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194219#194219

>

>

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Ah... "The Infamous Wavered Airspace Clause" 



David, it is a moot point, but Airshow Wavered Space is really not much

different than Aerobatic Practice or Aerobatic Competion Airspace.  Most

of the same rules are indeed wavered.  



As it turns out, I am the signatory on some Wavered Airspace myself.  No

where in any of the paperwork that I am sitting here looking at right

now says anything about not allowing a person in the backseat to ride

along inside of that wavered airspace in an aerobatic aircraft.  But...

This is of course not an AIRSHOW wavered airspace.  



So.... It must be something special that applies to Air Shows only where

you have to ask permission to have someone else in the aircraft while

flying in wavered airspace.  



Could you possibly quote that to me so as to educate my less than bright

rear end? I'd really like to read where it says that.  



Mark Bitterlich



AKA:  "WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN BACK SEAT BADGES"  



 p.s.  What do you call the co-pilot in a B-17 that is flying in Wavered

Airspace?  A required crew member? 

       What do you call Ron's son flying in the backseat of a YAK-52?

Something other than a required crew member?  

       If the latter, how can be fly in there legally EVER?  In ANY kind

of airspace?  If he is a required crew 

       member outside of wavered airspace, how all of a sudden is he NOT

a required crew member IN wavered airspace. 



       Does the Mission Commander of a C-130 have to ask the FAA for

permission for all his crew when flying in 

       wavered airspace?  Ah... That would be no.  



       Ya gotta love these interesting questions.  

 



--

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6, BT-13 etc. etc.  etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have only - repeat only  - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace.

  

 This could be a new FAST pilot with either a Lead or Check pilot as  GIB for airshow orientation.  

  

 A new lead with a Lead or Check pilot as airshow lead orientation.

  

 A mass lead with a lead or check pilot as airshow lead orientation

  

 Or a mass lead with FAST rated pilot (Lead or Check pilot) as GIB as  formation safety pilot.

  

 Each and every such flight - at each and every performance, is cleared  individually by the FAA.  Its done in person, and orally at the  briefing.

  

 You can not blow smoke up their ass, claiming a private pilot or passenger  as a required crew member for "safety".

  

 After OSH, I will be making a special trip to Thunder Over Michigan to fly  the B-24 in the show (wavered airspace) simply because I happened to  be the only B-24 pilot with the Collings Foundation with a FAST card.   I will have only crew on board - me, co-pilot (not FAST rated), and  the flight mechanic - all REQUIRED crew.  No VIPs, not the boss's  daughter-in-law, not my kids or grand kids, no reporters nor news camera men,  ETC ETC.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  

  

  



Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.

  [quote][b]

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

In a message dated 7/21/2008 7:38:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  ronwasson(at)mindspring.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Ok     Thanks  for the info.   I will watch this one from the ground    for  

a change. Hearing  50 Yak's  in formation is much    better than flying  

in it and only seeing your leader. Must agree    with you about the FAA  

being not about safety but hard and fast    rules.



	


 

  

  

 Hmmmmmmmm.  To bad.  There is a good chance this will never to  done again.

  

 Pappy



Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.

  [quote][b]

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Hi Ron,



  I hope you take the chance to fly in the shows, you will enjoy them.  We

would love the help of your son on the ground as well.  The formations are

made to be easy for any formation rated pilot - if you are comfortable in a

4-ship, you will enjoy the shows.  Look forward to meeting you at West Bend

and/or Oshkosh



David



On 7/21/08 7:31 PM, "ronald wasson" <ronwasson(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Ok  Thanks  for the info.   I will watch this one from the ground for

 a change. Hearing  50 Yak's  in formation is much better than flying

 in it and only seeing your leader. Must agree with you about the FAA

 being not about safety but hard and fast rules.

 

 

 

 On Jul 21, 2008, at 6:12 PM, David McGirt wrote:

 

> 

> 

> Ron,

> 

> In WAVERED airspace - the answer is no.   During the arrival show into

> Oshkosh - he can ride in the back, as this arrival is NOT during

> wavered

> airspace.

> 

> You can talk directly to the FAA, and ask for a waver during a

> show..  You

> can guess how that will go...  We will be asking the FAA's

> permission on Wed

> to allow additional crew for the big mass formation for 4 planes -

> mission

> safety being the reason, we HOPE they will grant these.  To your

> point,

> because we will have >50 planes in the air, I am asking for a

> spotter in the

> backseat of the Flight Leads.

> 

> Mark - no the blue's don't take riders in waivered airspace.. 

> before and

> after, but not during..

> 

> So, just to be clear, your son is ok for the arrival show on Monday

> ( we

> will depart from West Bend ) , not during the week.. And of course,

> he can

> sit in the back if groups go up before and after the waivered

> airspace is

> up..

> 

> David

> 

> 

> 

> On 7/21/08 5:59 PM, "ronwasson" <ronwasson(at)mindspring.com> wrote:

> 

>> 

>> <ronwasson(at)mindspring.com>

>> 

>> I plan on flying in the formation at Oshkosh. Paperwork, chutes ,

>> Insurance,

>> fast card are all in order.  My question is if my son, who hold a

>> private

>> license,  can be in the backseat to shoot photos and use his 20/10

>> eyes to

>> spot traffic for me.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> Read this topic online here:

>> 

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194219#194219

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:39 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

That is a fair request, I will see if I can get a copy of the waiver for

Oshkosh..  I will tell you those are the words that come out of the mouth of

the Airboss, and the FAA guy that is in the briefing - but to your point, it

can not hurt to find the words..  I am sure as hell not going to arm wrestle

your big ol self over it..



David

On 7/21/08 7:54 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"

<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



[quote] 

 MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 

 Ah... "The Infamous Wavered Airspace Clause"

 

 David, it is a moot point, but Airshow Wavered Space is really not much

 different than Aerobatic Practice or Aerobatic Competion Airspace.  Most

 of the same rules are indeed wavered.

 

 As it turns out, I am the signatory on some Wavered Airspace myself.  No

 where in any of the paperwork that I am sitting here looking at right

 now says anything about not allowing a person in the backseat to ride

 along inside of that wavered airspace in an aerobatic aircraft.  But...

 This is of course not an AIRSHOW wavered airspace.

 

 So.... It must be something special that applies to Air Shows only where

 you have to ask permission to have someone else in the aircraft while

 flying in wavered airspace.

 

 Could you possibly quote that to me so as to educate my less than bright

 rear end? I'd really like to read where it says that.

 

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 AKA:  "WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN BACK SEAT BADGES"

 

  p.s.  What do you call the co-pilot in a B-17 that is flying in Wavered

 Airspace?  A required crew member?

        What do you call Ron's son flying in the backseat of a YAK-52?

 Something other than a required crew member?

        If the latter, how can be fly in there legally EVER?  In ANY kind

 of airspace?  If he is a required crew

        member outside of wavered airspace, how all of a sudden is he NOT

 a required crew member IN wavered airspace.

 

        Does the Mission Commander of a C-130 have to ask the FAA for

 permission for all his crew when flying in

        wavered airspace?  Ah... That would be no.

 

        Ya gotta love these interesting questions.

  

 

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

You said:   "The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6,

BT-13 etc. etc. etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have

only - repeat only - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace" 



May I have a copy of, or a reference to that FAA document please?  



Next, you point out that your crew members in the B-24 are not FAST

certified.  



Have you read the published FAA requirements of who is allowed to fly in

an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft?  Not just Pilot... But "FLY INSIDE

OF".  Usually contained in the Operating Limitations Section.   



Just curious. 

Mark

 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

AIR BOSS..... A I R  B O S S !!!!!!!



AHA... Now you see, to be clear that is a totally different situation,

and it honestly is where I was heading for with all of this.  



The AIR BOSS has totally free latitude to specify any darn thing he

wants.  He can prohibit passengers, he can specify FAST pilots only

(like Pappy was referring to), and the list goes on and on.  It is also

true that the FAA will BACK UP just about anything the AIR BOSS says.

That is because the AIR BOSS is allowed to add anything he darn well

wants to in order to INCREASE SAFETY IN WAVERED AIRSPACE, and as such

... It could be easily argued that allowing ANY kind of passenger in a

formation flight is increasing the level of danger.  The FAA will indeed

back that up.  The AIR BOSS could legally prohibit Pilot passengers FAST

QUALIFIED OR NOT!  



The big difference here is that the FAA did not CREATE such a rule, and

the FAA does not endorse or recognize FAST (sorry Pappy, that's the way

it is).  The United States Federal Aviation Administration is very very

careful not to recognize or require certification from any other agency

other than itself.  To do so opens them up for huge liability and

prejudicial concerns and they are not stupid. 



I have no doubt David that those are the words that came out of the

mouth of the Air Boss and he is King.  His word is indeed law and I

would not argue with the guy.  Again, the FAA WILL INDEED BACK HIM UP!!!

It may be a small point to make, but it is a point that is important

when you dig into the depths of rulebooks.  You see it *IS* the FAA who

writes the operating limitations, and many many YAK owners will see the

words in those limitations that say that only recognized and required

aircrew may fly in their Experimental Exhibition aircraft AT ALL.  Read

those words carefully.... "AT ALL".  Thus for the FAA to allow Ron's son

to ARRIVE in the aircraft, and then turn right around and say he is "Not

Required Aircrew" to fly in the wavered airspace would be contradicting

themselves.  The FAA does NOT like to do that.  So... In the end, Ron's

son not being allowed to fly in the wavered airspace is not due to

being, or not being.... a Required Crew Member and meeting FAA

requirements, it is a matter of meeting the AIR BOSS's rules and regs

and that is a whole different kettle of fish, and is as it should be.  



Mark

  



--

david(at)mcgirt.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

" e. For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers (specified in

aircraft operating limitations) or those persons actively participating in

the demonstration (wingwalkers and stunt persons, etc.) will be carried on

any aircraft engaged in demonstrations authorized by this waiver. "



On 7/21/08 9:19 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E"

<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



[quote] 

 MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 

 

 

 You said:   "The FAA's guide line on "crew" in Yaks, CJ-6, T-34, T-6,

 BT-13 etc. etc. etc. have been that all formation aircraft will have

 only - repeat only - FAST rated pilots on board in wavered airspace"

 

 May I have a copy of, or a reference to that FAA document please?

 

 Next, you point out that your crew members in the B-24 are not FAST

 certified.  

 

 Have you read the published FAA requirements of who is allowed to fly in

 an Experimental Exhibition Aircraft?  Not just Pilot... But "FLY INSIDE

 OF".  Usually contained in the Operating Limitations Section.

 

 Just curious. 

 

 

 Mark

  

 

 --

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

During a Waivered period, no Blue Angel has ever had civvies in the

back.  The only Required Crewmembers are those job descriptions listed

in the Operating Limitations and required all the time.  The EAA takes a

similar view to the FAA Airshow Waivered Airspace requirements with

their warbirds.



In close formation work, if the pilot needs additional eyes, it might be

a great time to consider an eye examination prior to launch.



Lots of experience with Warbird waivered airspace leads me to say "Nice

Try".  However I did see a wife who was a certified military medical

flight officer get the coveted approval not long ago.  Will love to

watch this unfold.



John Cox -GIB



--

jgriffint28(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

It was only recently that the regs were bent to allow us to arrive at the 

airport and do the arrival airshow with our backseaters. It was a matter of 

necessity to accomodate the formation groups and it saves them money for 

just paying for fuel in the EAA's airspace.

You will have NO luck getting a backseater approved unless you are a first 

timer at OSH. An OSH experienced pilot who is FAST Rated and competent in 

the type aircraft will be approved and encouraged to accompany you.

Jim Griffin

---

mikspin

Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 66

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Required crewmember

No offense guys, but it sounds like a few here have no idea how old this argument is, and how many attempts have been made to expand on the definition of required crewmember (however valid the principle might be) to suit the situation.



Mike Hastings



PS The type certificate for the B17 requires 2 pilots...

ronwasson

Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 30

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

Thanks for all the discussion on the gib topic. My son wants his fast  

card but needs to get his commercial / instrument / multi / c.f.i.   

done in the next 12 months first . Did not mean to piss anyone off but  

would like to be with my son to explain the formation than leave him  

on the ground. After 21,000 hours of military , corporate,  and   

airline I just don't have  any urgent formation squares I need filling  

personally. 12 more years of airline flying makes flying the CJ a  

great relief from the corporate  madness.  Never been to OSH so there  

is much to see with him and soak up some of his newcomer awe to  

refresh mine.

																										ron

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: Required crewmember

David, 



This quote:  "For civilian aircraft, only required flight crewmembers

(specified in aircraft operating limitations)" commonly appears in a lot

of actual Experimental Exhibition category aircraft. It then goes on to

say: "can fly in this aircraft".  So forget Airshows for a moment.

Explain how we can put ANY "guy in back"?  If we do put a person in

back, with the actual aircraft operating limitations that have just been

quoted, then we are telling the world that the GIB is indeed required

flight crew.  



When the same exact wording is then used again in a specific waiver for

something else, how can you then turn around and say that the GIB is now

NOT "a required crew member"?  



I guess the answer is that when flying around at the local airport, we

manage to bullshit everyone, or ignore the rule.  However at the

Airshow... We can't... Too many people watching.  



Next.  



Yes, your para."e" was obviously taken off of a specific waiver for a

specific activity.  However my request for a reference dealt with the

issue that the FAA required FAST cards.  Your quote has nothing to do

with that, and without the whole waiver, it is out of context.  If you

could....... please send me the whole waiver off line.  



And according to what is now being said on this subject, I have another

question.  Does the B-24 require two pilots to fly it?  If so, then

Pappy can not be the only FAST rated person aboard.  His co-pilot would

have to be too.  See?  Look how much we're learning here!  Look out

Pappy!  



Mark





--

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