Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Unlatched Outrigger
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: Unlatched Outrigger

I have had an incident with my Europa (G-MIME) due to an outrigger not 

being latched down for landing. I thought members of the forum with 

monowheel Europas would like information of this event to help them 

consider whether this event has any learning points for them.



Background

G-MIME has 220hrs and has had no previous history of this problem 

since its permit was issued in 2001. It has the latest outrigger mod 

which improves the mounting and lubricates the pivot. The legs were 

able to move freely before and after the incident. It was also fitted 

with microswitches to sense when the outriggers were locked down (more 

of that later!!).



The Incident

I was landing on runway 26 at Caernarfon at 12.35pm local time on 

Sunday 13th July in excellent weather conditions with a surface wind of 

230/8kts. The landing was smooth and nothing was noticed until full 

aileron authority was lost at about 20-30kts. At this point the right 

wing dropped. I applied full left aileron but was unable to prevent the 

right wing tip touching the runway. The aircraft veered rapidly to the 

left and it temporarily pitched just sufficient for the propeller to 

graze the runway stopping the engine. The aircraft left the runway 

surface and settled back onto its tailwheel on the grass.



Initial Analysis

The only damage was grazing to the leading edge tips of the propeller 

blades, the underside of the starboard wingtip and the front of the 

starboard outrigger spat.

The aircraft ended up in a normal parked attitude. On exiting the 

aircraft I lifted the starboard wing only to find that the outrigger 

was now locked down. I put this down to the slight drop from the runway 

surface onto the grass allowing the outrigger to spring forward. 

Further examination of the outrigger gave no clue as to why the 

outrigger didnâ€™t lock down initially.

The aircraft is fitted with a slipper clutch so no check of the 

crankshaft was deemed necessary.



Subsequent Events

The support by all aviators and the ground services at Caernarfon was 

superb. In particular a local PFA inspector (Druid Petrie) was 

exceptional. Without his help the aircraft would have still been at 

Caernarfon now. A local flexwing microlight pilot offered me the use of 

his Arplast ground adjustable prop. We initially accepted his offer 

until it was realised that in pusher mode these props rotate in the 

wrong direction for a tractor application. Druid then rang around and 

found a Warpdrive prop on a Europa which was out of permit. Although 

this was a 45 minute drive away he collected the prop, adjusted the 

blade angle for the extra power of my 912S engine and fitted it to my 

Europa.  During the afternoon a friend of mine with a Mooney kindly 

flew over in case we needed a lift back to Wiltshire. We finally left 

Caernarfon at 7.10pm arriving back at Lydeway at 8.25pm.



Learning Points

As I said earlier I had fitted microswitches to enable me to know when 

the outriggers are locked down as this cannot be confirmed visually. 

Last year I had a few occasions when there has been a problem with the 

earth return cable preventing both lights from illuminating. I had been 

meaning to address this problem but as the problem had not re-occurred 

so far this season I had planned to defer this maintenance until the 

next service. This modification is a personal one and is not required 

by the LAA. It was bad luck that this problem reoccurred at start-up 

out of Lydeway on Sunday. Ironically the system worked fine for the 

subsequent return sector to Lydeway which was very reassuring for the 

landing. I have learnt that having an indication showing when the 

outriggers are locked down is a very valuable asset. I was also unlucky 

in that the direction of the wind was such that the slight crosswind 

was from the wrong side. Had it either been the other outrigger or the 

wind from the starboard side I might have been able to raise the wing, 

take-off again and try reselecting the landing gear down. There have 

been incidents of outriggers being sluggish to latch down when the gear 

is lowered close to maximum speed (83kts). In this case I was slowed up 

by some flexwings ahead of me in the circuit so the gear wasnâ€™t lowered 

until 65kts so this was not an issue. I am now even more convinced than 

ever that a system which indicates when the outriggers are locked down 

is a worthwhile addition to monowheel Europas.



I was touched by the kindness of other pilots in their assistance 

during this stressful afternoon. However the hero of the day was Druid 

whose determined and professional approach to the problem ensured that 

the optimal solution was achieved. Caernarfon is a great place to fly 

to and I would encourage others to fly there. I shall certainly be 

flying back there as and when the weather permits. Perhaps we might 

arrange a DOTH there in the near future.



Regards



Nigel Charles



__________________________________________________________



2 for 1 Special Offer on Tiscali SpyGuard to protect your online identity  - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/spyguard

__________________________________________________________

jrgowing(at)bigpond.net.a
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: Unlatched Outrigger

Dear Nigel

I would be pleased if you could explain exactly where you fitted your 

micro-switches so that you could be sure that the legs were actually 

locked.......

JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 still under construction in Oz

do not archive



---

p-a.austin(at)xnet.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I have had an incident with my Europa (G-MIME) due to an outrigger not 

 being latched down for landing. I thought members of the forum with 

 monowheel Europas would like information of this event to help them 

 consider whether this event has any learning points for them.


	


Nigel,



Have you managed to ascertain why your Outrigger failed to latched.

 

Await your judgement.



Peter.

air.guerner(at)orange.fr
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

Hi Nigel,

  

 It would be of  high interest for all monowheel operators to know the root cause of your  mishap. As long as the reason is not identified it may happen to you again! I  believe there should be a way to reproduce the unlatched outrigger problem on  the ground and find out what is wrong in your outrigger  mechanism.

 Best regards

 Remi Guerner

 F-PGKL

  

  

 	  Quote: 	
		    I have had an incident with my Europa (G-MIME) due to an outrigger not 

  being latched down for landing. I thought members of the forum with 

  monowheel Europas would like information of this event to help them 

  consider whether this event has any learning points for  them.


	


Nigel,



Have you managed to ascertain why your Outrigger  failed to latched.



Await your  judgement.



Peter.



    [quote][b]

gcrowder2

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

  The outriggers on my mono have never failed to latch but I have noticed that if I lower the

 gear/flaps/outriggers at just under flap speed C the outriggers do not audibly latch in the down

 position until approx 70 mph.  I'm wondering if the down latch springs are getting tired after 6 yrs or so?

  

                                                      Glenn

  

   

 From: air.guerner(at)orange.fr

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Europa-List: Unlatched outrigger

Date: Thu C 17 Jul 2008 21:52:47 +0200

     Hi Nigel C

  

 It would be of high interest for all monowheel operators to know the root cause of your mishap. As long as the reason is not identified it may happen to you again! I believe there should be a way to reproduce the unlatched outrigger problem on the ground and find out what is wrong in your outrigger mechanism.

 Best regards

 Remi Guerner

 F-PGKL

  

  

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have had an incident with my Europa (G-MIME) due to an outrigger not 

 being latched down for landing. I thought members of the forum with 

 monowheel Europas would like information of this event to help them 

 consider whether this event has any learning points for them.


	


Nigel C



Have you managed to ascertain why your Outrigger failed to latched.



Await your judgement.



Peter.



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
Time for vacation? WIN what you need. Enter Now!  [quote][b]

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have noticed that if I lower the

gear/flaps/outriggers at just under flap speed, the outriggers do not audibly latch in the down
	


position until approx 70 mph.  I'm wondering if the down latch springs are getting tired after 6 yrs or so?< 

This is a fairly common phenomenon even on newer Europas. The increase airflow near the gear limit speed works against the springs. With that in mind I delay lowering the landing gear until 60-65kts. On the day of my incident the gear was lowered at about this speed. One suggestion made by another monowheel owner is to always lower the gear in one rapid movemement. This will give the outriggers a bit more inertia as they swing improving the chances of latching. Perhaps this was the one thing that I should have done. In the past I have normally lowered the gear in a relatively gentle motion to smooth out the pitch change. Two warning points for those delaying gear lowering. Firstly remember that 60kts is only about 10kts above the stall speed. Secondly there is an increased chance of forgetting gear lowering altogether.  

I haven't had a chance yet to more closely examine the outrigger mechanism. However with the latest outrigger mod ensuring a free and lubricated pivot I don't expect to find anything amiss. One owner had a problem of a bolt head rubbing against the sideplates. This leaves witness marks and should be easy to check. 

I will ensure my microswitches are fully functional in future and would recommend these as an extra piece of mind to other monowheel owners. 

If I find out anything else I will of course place my findings on the forum. 

Nigel Charles 	


__________________________________________________________

Is big brother watching you? http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security

__________________________________________________________  [quote][b]

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

Hi Nigel



Thx. sharing with us info on your outrigger collapse.



"> I will ensure my microswitches are fully functional in future and would

recommend these as an extra piece of mind to other monowheel owners."



For what it's worth I ran a tube to cleanly run micro switch wires:



http://www.europaowners.org/modules.php?set_albumName=album217&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php



Ron P.

Jhleuropa(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

My Europa monowheel has been flying since 99 and initially I had three  incidents of an outrigger failing to latch which in the first two incidents,  resulted in minor scuffing damage to the outrigger leg. On the third  occasion, I managed to recover early in the event by applying maximum  aileron.

  

 Thorough inspection,cleaning, relubrication and testing with A/C jacked  up, failed to reveal any reason or reoccurrence.

  

 Since then, I always plan to deploy the gear around 70Kts in one swift and  positive movement, with a bit of a thump no less, and have not had a problem  since. A bit basic but it seems to work.

  

 Hope this info is of some help.

  

 John Lace.

  

 G-OJHL  350 hours  

     [quote][b]

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

My take on the outrigger latching system of a monowheel europa is that it

uses technology that is closer to a mechanical adding machine/typewriter

than airplane retractable undercarriage. 



My Dad was a technician for both adding machines/typewriters and myself

being exposed to such in great detail even before kindergarten has

somewhat rubbed off onto me.



It's been a few years since I fooled with my outrigger assembly, but here

are some observations:



*When fooling with fit of OR4 latch, you are trying to find a compromise

with just enough clearance to not bind latch edge, because the more

clearance you leave the higher the factor of (wigulation) in gear leg when

retracted. I on purpose filed just enough to get latch in place with a

smooth action. Anything less than steady and smooth would not latch. I

fooled with it and found that change in temperature or if wing was in sun

on trailer would not allow a latch at all no matter what I did. I forget

now what was the worst case, but I filed just a little at a time till it

would just latch with a not so smooth actuation and filed a few thousands

more



*When things wear, begin to score and lube goes away or temperatures reach

extremes for me that can still be a different story compared to my new

build. I feel a lot more comfortable having micro switches telling me that

both OR4s are latched, If for some reason they do not latch, you have a

very good chance of being able to do a few actuation's and getting a

latch. If you just can not get a latch, then land with wind favoring push

on the latched outrigger.



When I do conditional or 100 hour, will swing gear and force "worst case"

and return to service only after I am satisfied with action. 



All said will still try to load outriggers as little as possable, as per

preaching of John Hurst.



Ron Parigoris

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

After first assembling the outrigger along w/ the Club mod, when I 

deployed the flaps (and outrigger) for the first time and heard that 

resounding "THOWONGK", I truly marveled at the precision and complexity 

of the mechanism, particularly the way the flap deploys an additional 2 

degrees to ensure lock-down of the outrigger wheel.



But as I read of the operational issues (airspeed at deployment, wear 

and tear, lubrication, effects of temperature, etc.), I've had an 

increasing appreciation for the value of the microswitch-warning lights 

which some builders have installed.



I gotta admit that I am challenged by all things electrical, so I would 

humbly ask that someone...someone who can handle wiring diagrams, 

warning lights, microswitches, and a digital camera (while skipping 

rope and chewing gum at the same time)...please, put together an 

illustrated tutorial (in crayon) showing just how this is done.



Fred

A-194



-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

believed to be clean.

jrgowing(at)bigpond.net.a
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

I strongly support Fred Klein's plea for such a  tutorial!

  

 JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

 	  Quote: 	
		  But as I read of the operational issues (airspeed at deployment, wear and tear, lubrication, effects of temperature, etc.), I've had an increasing appreciation for the value of the microswitch-warning lights which some builders have installed.

 
	


 I gotta admit that I am challenged by all things electrical, so I would humbly ask that someone...someone who can handle wiring diagrams, warning lights, microswitches, and a digital camera (while skipping rope and chewing gum at the same time)...please, put together an illustrated tutorial (in crayon) showing just how this is done.<  

   

   

The wiring for the outrigger warning lights is very simple. Each light is connected using a microswitch attached to the outrigger leg. The placement of the microswitch was decided on such that its lever arm would be fully depressed once the latch was engaged.  

   

Nigel Charles  

       [quote][b]

DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

Simple wire run....wire from main buss to 1 amp circuit breaker or fuse,  then wire from CB/fuse to microswitch at the outrigger, wire from  the microswitch to green light inside cockpit, wire from green light to  ground. Duplicate using same CB/fuse, run out to microswitch on the other  wing and then run back to a second green light.

  

  In a message dated 7/20/2008 1:05:27 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        

 	  Quote: 	
		  But as I read of the    operational issues (airspeed at deployment, wear and tear, lubrication,    effects of temperature, etc.), I've had an increasing appreciation for the    value of the microswitch-warning lights which some builders have    installed.


	


I gotta admit that I am challenged by all things electrical,    so I would humbly ask that someone...someone who can handle wiring diagrams,    warning lights, microswitches, and a digital camera (while skipping rope and    chewing gum at the same time)...please, put together an illustrated    tutorial (in crayon) showing just how this is done.<   

    

    

The wiring for    the outrigger warning lights is very simple. Each light is connected using a    microswitch attached to the outrigger leg. The placement of the microswitch    was decided on such that its lever arm would be fully depressed once the latch    was engaged.   

    

Nigel    Charles

 	  Quote: 	
		  



f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.

  [quote][b]

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

On Sunday, Jul 20, 2008, at 13:01 US/Pacific, nigel charles wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The wiring for the outrigger warning lights is very simple. Each light 

 is connected using a microswitch attached to the outrigger leg. The 

 placement of the microswitch was decided on such that its lever arm 

 would be fully depressed once the latch was engaged.


	


Nigel,



Y'know, in my field (architecture), I tend to undervalue the things 

I've learned thru formal education and practical experience over time, 

such that in conversation w/ a lay person, I sometimes make 

unreasonable assumptions about the knowledge base of the person with 

whom I'm talking.



Similarly, in the case at hand, I'm not sure I've ever seen or handled 

a "microswitch". Looking in the Acft. Spruce catalog, I find no 

listings, though I do see an "ultra-miniature toggle switch"...somehow, 

I don't think this is what would serve, nor does it suggest any clues 

as to what I need.



Some of the questions (perhaps "stupid" ones) going thru my mind are:



- Is there a size or rating for the type of microswitch referred to?

- Is there a specific microswitch which would be especially suitable 

for this application, or are we simply talking about a generic, 

universal type?

- What size wiring would be suitable?

- Would "outrigger warning lights" imply that there would be a red 

light and a green light, or just the absence of a green light (when the 

outrigger is not down and locked? Are we talking about LEDs, or some 

kind of bulb?

- Any chance of a photo of an installed system?



Like I said in my original post, my being electrically-challenged, I 

plead for information spelled out in crayon,



Cheers,



Fred

-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

believed to be clean.

jrgowing(at)bigpond.net.a
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

Dear Nigel Charles

  

 I am in Fred Klein's class and never knowingly looked carefully  at  a micro-switch - if someone could post a photo of the switch in its  location on the leg we, and I guess, a number of others would now have  the full tutorial!

  

 JR (Bob) Gowing in Oz

  

  

 ---

DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

Hi Fred,

  

 I hope this helps a bit.

  

 Mike

  

 In a message dated 7/20/2008 3:44:45 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  fklein(at)orcasonline.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Similarly, in the case at hand, I'm not sure I've ever seen or handled    

a "microswitch". Looking in the Acft. Spruce catalog, I find no    

listings, though I do see an "ultra-miniature toggle switch"...somehow,    

I don't think this is what would serve, nor does it suggest any clues    

as to what I need. 	
 http://www.mouser.com/catalog/634/1508.pdf    Middle of the page on right. Letters I,J,&  K. Also look at the previous page for A,B,C, & D. The connection for  the wire should be this type. You can use either small pushon connectors or  solder a wire and cover with heat shrink tubing. When the outrigger drops down,  it should press the lever that actuates the switch. These have two mounting  holes in the body of the switch. These current ratings are far above what you  might need.....usually less than a amp is used to make the circuit  work.

  	  Quote: 	
		  



Some of the questions (perhaps "stupid" ones) going thru my    mind are:



- Is there a size or rating for the type of microswitch    referred to?

- Is there a specific microswitch which would be especially    suitable 

for this application, or are we simply talking about a generic,    

universal type?

- What size wiring would be suitable?

- Would    "outrigger warning lights" imply that there would be a red 

light and a    green light, or just the absence of a green light (when the 

outrigger is    not down and locked? Are we talking about LEDs, or some 

kind of    bulb? 	
 I would go with only the green, otherwise  you are using electrical power to have a red light constantly on. This could be  annoying, especially when flying at night.

  	  Quote: 	
		  

 	


Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today.

  [quote][b]

RoddyEuropa(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

My advice on this is that when you test u/c retraction and  deployment with the plane on blocks (annual?) you simulate some back  pressure on the outriggers by pulling back on them with a bungee. I found that  mine would latch quite happily when the plane was up on blocks, but in the air I  didn't get the reassuring 'clunk' until I slowed down to nearer landing  speed. Backwards force on the outriggers is proportional to square of the  airspeed.

 Testing on the ground they seemed to be fine, but not if you pulled them  back as the gear went down. Bit of adjustment and now they are fine.

 Roddy Kesterton

 #220

  

  

  

 In a message dated 17/07/2008 21:45:37 GMT Daylight Time,  gcrowder2(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		       The outriggers on my mono have never failed to latch but I have noticed that    if I lower the

gear/flaps/outriggers at just under flap speed, the    outriggers do not audibly latch in the down

position until approx 70    mph.  I'm wondering if the down latch springs are getting tired after 6    yrs or    so?

 

                                                        Glenn

 

      

From: air.guerner(at)orange.fr

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:    Unlatched outrigger

Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:52:47    +0200

           Hi Nigel,

    

   It would be of    high interest for all monowheel operators to know the root cause of your    mishap. As long as the reason is not identified it may happen to you again! I    believe there should be a way to reproduce the unlatched outrigger problem on    the ground and find out what is wrong in your outrigger    mechanism.

   Best regards

   Remi Guerner

   F-PGKL

    

   

 	  Quote: 	
		   I    have had an incident with my Europa (G-MIME) due to an outrigger not 

    being latched down for landing. I thought members of the forum with 

    monowheel Europas would like information of this event to help them 

    consider whether this event has any learning points for    them.


	


Nigel,



Have you managed to ascertain why your Outrigger    failed to latched.



Await your    judgement.



Peter.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	


 

  

     [quote][b]

asarangan(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

Regarding micro switches, it should only close when the outrigger is

'down and locked'  and not simply when it is 'down'. I haven't seen

any discussion of the best location for the microswitch, but my belief

is that it should be on the OR7B step, with the switch tab facing OR5

arm. I have not installed it yet, but attached is a couple of diagrams

of what I am planning to do. Please let me know your thoughts.

Outrigger1.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

181.94 KB

Viewed:

172 Time(s)

Outrigger2.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

131.71 KB

Viewed:

184 Time(s)

Outrigger3.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

129.07 KB

Viewed:

159 Time(s)

jrgowing(at)bigpond.net.a
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

Dear Andrew

Great clear photos, and at first read it looks excellent advice.

I am looking forward to further comments but at last I am stating to feel 

confident to do it!

Thank you for going to such trouble.



Sincerely

JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 Australia



do not archive

-

nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:01 am Post subject: Unlatched outrigger

There are probably at least two or more positions where the microswitch 

can be placed to sense the down and latched position. Which you choose 

is up to you. I found that by attaching it directly to the OR4 no extra 

mounting plate was required. It was a relatively simple matter to route 

the wiring so that the movement of the OR4 was not an issue. To keep 

the wiring compact I used 20 gauge single coaxial aircraft quality 

wire.



I guess that my intermittent earth connection problem is at the plug-

socket connection at the back of the panel. I might reroute the earth 

connection direct to the battery to overcome this.



Nigel Charles



--

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum