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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:23 am Post subject: E-mag/P-Mag Please Explain! (auto vs A/C plugs) |
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Subject: Re: E-mag/P-Mag P L E A S E E X P L A I N
From: "Condon, Philip M." <pcondon(at)mitre.org>
>Whoa.....strong words! How cay one know this when the E/P MAG
>units are so new ? Please put some more words around the "Better"
>descriptor word you choose. Certainly, fully describing the attributes
>of each and why one unit is superior to another is appropriate
>here...right ??
Wow Philip, you are pretty demanding for some one who is asking for
free advice. Let me be abrupt with you. Do you know ANYTHING about
electronic ignition? Did you bother looking at the archives for info on
the P/E-mag? I am going out on a limb and guess no? If I said CDI or
Induction Ignition would that mean anything to you?
There was an EAA sport aviation article a few months back, suggest
you read it. I also would visit all the web sites of each manufacture.
Electroair: http://www.electroair.net/
Lightspeed: http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/
P/E-mag: http://emagair.com/E-MAG_product_page.htm
Aeorsparks: http://www.aerosparks.com/home.htm
Now let me give you the facts of EI life. All ignitions are similar
however with fear you will challenge me and call me a lier, I agree
with Dick Martin 100%. The Lightspeed Plasma III is likely the
highest performance and has the most performance features.
Folks, who KNOW way more than you about engine performance
pick the Lightspeed. And your comment to this as, SO?
Now there are subtle differences between EI brands. I would explain
why the Lightspeed is considered to be a higher performance EI,
but not sure you would understand. Leave it to say its a MS-CDI
(multi spark - capacitance discharge ignition).
Bottom line is they all will give hotter longer (fatter) spark than
a magneto, can advance timing based on manifold pressure and
RPM and should be more reliable with no points to wear.
The other ignitions, such as E/P-mag and Electroair are induction
ignitions. Look up the difference.
if you look at coils, electroair uses two LARGE coils compared
to the single coil in the E/P-mag. Because E/P-mag has a
*form factor* design that is all-in-one. Therefor it must make
some compromises in coil size. Common sense would say
that the E/P-mag spark will be less. Indeed E/P-mag does
not promote itself as a "performance ignition" but a low cost
easier to install ignition. In their FAQ there was a statement
to this affect and they do not publish performance specs. I
am not saying the E/P-mag is not good, just that is has
smaller coils than electroair for example. Make your own
conclusion, but lets be real. If you are an average every
day pilot 3% may be good enough and if you race you
need 4%. I don't know the differences but at lean mixtures
and high altitude the Lightspeed should burn the mixture
better, and it also has features no other ignition has, such
as cockpit controlled vairable timing and read out, as well
as RPM/MAP read outs.
The big claim to fame for the E/P-mag is more compact
installtion with out sattalite components and the self
powered feature, that allows dual EI with not need to
consider a small AUX battery.
Last fact, there has been no real heads-up comparison
between Brands. Leave it to say that they all will give much
better performance than a MAG. I guess you will now ask
show me or prove it. Again you need to research it, but you
can expect, smoother operation and gain efficiency and
performance. How much efficiency you receive is based on
how you fly. In cruise at altitude, EI is very efficient, primarily
not only from the much hotter longer spark but the advance
timing at low power settings. As I guess? you know Mags
have fixed timing.
As far as auto PLUGS or aviaition PLUGS. I prefer Aviation
plugs. They are more massive and rugged and known to
work well. Auto plugs have been shown to be fine for some
builders however there have been some anomalies. COST?
Penutes. In the big picture auto plugs will NOT be any factor
in you big picture. At first $3.00 sounds great VS. $16.00;
However aviaition plugs can last 1000 or 2000 hours. Most
auto plugs, needed or not are replaced as soon as every
oil change to a few 100 hours. Last is performance. An
EXPERT in aviation ignition who I talked to that knows more
about ignition than you ever will, found increased performance
using aviation plugs verses auto plugs. One pilot-builder also
found that his engine was stronger with aviation plugs when
he switched between Av and Auto and than back again.
Again no heads up comparison. Trust me.
I am NOT saying autoplugs are not good; however you may
have NO choice depending on what brand EI you buy.
(electroair and E/P-mag are the only ones offering a plug
option from the factory.)
As said Autolite UREM 37BY's are only $16.00ea & may last
2 to 5 times longer, so autoplugs are not a huge factor when
you think of fuel, oil and all the other cost. For some reason
autoplugs are replaced more by their pilot/owners; however
some have reported to run theirs up to 700 hours of more.
I don't know of what the high time auto plug is, but aviation
plugs can go to TBO. Aviation plugs are replaced more
for being dropped than wear. Also hold a Aviation plug.
TWO large electrodes on the side, vs. an autoplugs single
electrode which caps or covers the center, shadowing the
spark. Also the aviation plug has a metal outer case that
is more rugged and my provide better heat transfer and
cooling. All conjector but based on observation of the obvious.
Last is the autoplug adapters, another thing to buy. Just
my preference to go aviation plug if able. Take it or leave it.
LAST read and understand every word and graph of the
Cafe Foundation electronic ignition research articles.
http://cafefoundation.org/v1/aprs/ignition1.pdf
http://cafefoundation.org/v1/aprs/ignition2.pdf
http://cafefoundation.org/v1/aprs/ignition3.pdf
After you read the research, check the archives, read the EAA
article and manufacture web sites (better call or write each one
with spacific questions) get back to us, Phil. Dick by the way
has one of the fastest RV-8's around and has competed in
racing so I think you should consider his comments a little
more than So?
Cheers George
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rv9jim(at)juno.com
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: E-mag/P-Mag Please Explain! (auto vs A/C plugs) |
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Thanks George,
The explination on ignitions systems should be a "clearing" item
for thoes who are considering upgrading from standard Mag's. Me?, I am
using two "P" mags from E-Magair with auto plugs. Not flying yet but
maybe this fall.
Jim Nelson
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lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: E-mag/P-Mag Please Explain! (auto vs A/C plugs) |
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Thanks George.
I was wondering many of the same things. I have also not had much luck in researching the archives. Part of that is working 12 hr days and trying to build my first airplane, after wanting to for at least 40 years.
Well you know . many of you have been there before me.
So thanks for all who have shared your thoughts.
Do not archive
gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com wrote:
Now let me give you the facts of EI life. All ignitions are similar
however with fear you will challenge me and call me a lier, I agree
with Dick Martin 100%. The Lightspeed Plasma III is likely the
highest performance and has the most performance features.
Folks, who KNOW way more than you about engine performance
pick the Lightspeed. And your comment to this as, SO?
LAST read and understand every word and graph of the
Cafe Foundation electronic ignition research articles.
http://cafefoundation.org/v1/aprs/ignition1.pdf
http://cafefoundation.org/v1/aprs/ignition2.pdf
http://cafefoundation.org/v1/aprs/ignition3.pdf
After you read the research, check the archives, read the EAA
article and manufacture web sites (better call or write each one
with spacific questions) get back to us, Phil. Dick by the way
has one of the fastest RV-8's around and has competed in
racing so I think you should consider his comments a little
more than So?
Cheers George
Sherman Butler
RV7a empennage
finally the first rivets driven tonight!!!
Sherman Butler
RV-7a Empennage
Idaho Falls
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bkbrown(at)ashcreekwirele
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: E-mag/P-Mag Please Explain! (auto vs A/C plugs) |
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Sorry to be late on a response here (work sucks, doesn't it?). I concur with some of George's observations, and certainly the CAFE testing data give some performance data to consider. I think you should have a personal visit with each of the manufacturers of the electronic ignition systems before you purchase, that's one of the benefits of building experimental aircraft. The P-Mag/E-Mag system is certainly the new kid on the block and is still evolving. Latest information from Brad Dement at Emagair (P-Mag manufacturer) indicates the newest version of the P-Mag has a programmable input lead that allows one to implement whatever latest update which may exist. My P-Mag, (the earlier version) does not have that capability. Additionally, the Lightspeed system knows where the crank is once per revolution. In between that position, it imputes the position of the crank. The P-Mag/E-Mag system knows where the crank is at all times and can be programmed more precisely because of this.
As far as performance, just as in building a top fuel dragster, you will have to make some tradeoffs if you want every ounce of power. Your selection of ignition systems should be made based on YOUR design criteria, not someone elses. If your number one design criteria is more performance, it doesn't make sense to stop with the ignition system if you are not doing all the other things in your attempt to approach higher mach numbers.
My advice is to talk to several people who are running these systems and always compare apples to apples. Along the way, I encourage you not to make a choice of any one ignition system based on what their competitor has to say about it. Talk to all of them in person, develop a relationship and let them give you their views. Visit their websites. Take all of that information, mesh it with your design goals, throw in a little gut instinct and get out your wallet. Just as in being a pilot, YOU need to be making the decision for YOUR reasons.
Bob
RV7A - Fairings/Wheel pants
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dan(at)rvproject.com
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: E-mag/P-Mag Please Explain! (auto vs A/C plugs) |
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| Quote: | Additionally, the Lightspeed system knows where the crank
is once per revolution. In between that position, it imputes the
position of the crank. The P-Mag/E-Mag system knows wher
the crank is at all times and can be programmed more precisely
because of this.
|
That's some good marketing mumbo jumbo.  Sure, I suppose at IDLE or
extremely slow engine speeds the system would benefit from having finer
granularity. Lightspeed has two magnets in the flywheel, at least on the
crank position sensor that uses flywheel magnets. Knowing where the crank
is twice per revolution, at anything over idle speed, is not exactly rocket
science. At 2400 RPM, that's 4800 magnet passes per minute or 80 passes per
second. Maybe not the extremely fine granularity that other sensors would
provide, but is it really necessary, when all you're doing is a simple
lookup map between engine speed and manifold pressure?
Just playing devil's advocate.
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (833 hours w/Lightspeed)
http://www.rvproject.com
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DanFM01(at)butter.toast.n
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: E-mag/P-Mag Please Explain! (auto vs A/C plugs) |
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The E-Mag people promote their system as avoiding the problems with kickback
that can occur
with other electronic ignition systems when starting with a weak battery.
In that situation the crank
may rotate with a herky-jerky motion or even stall before TDC and start
rotating backward. If the
ignition fires in that situation it can break the starter. The E-Mag people
say their system can detect
iregular movements of the crank and suppress firing of the ignition. The
Sky-Tec company gives a
warranty extension on their starters specifically for the E-Mag ignition.
See emagair.com for details.
---
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dan(at)rvproject.com
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject: E-mag/P-Mag Please Explain! (auto vs A/C plugs) |
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Ah. I can definitely see the advantage of granularity during startup. Once
it's running I wouldn't think it makes a difference, but I have (on rare
occasion) seen my Lightspeed system fire back like you mentioned after a
failed start.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
---
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wstucklen1(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:48 am Post subject: E-mag/P-Mag Please Explain! (auto vs A/C plugs) |
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IMHO, not so much good marketing mumbo jumbo... An engine with an
electronic ignition that
senses only once per revolution can not be hand propped. An engine with
an electronic ignition
that always knows where on a revolution it is at, can be hand
propped....
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
> Additionally, the Lightspeed system knows where the crank
> is once per revolution. In between that position, it imputes
the
> position of the crank. The P-Mag/E-Mag system knows wher
> the crank is at all times and can be programmed more precisely
> because of this.
That's some good marketing mumbo jumbo. Sure, I suppose at
IDLE or
extremely slow engine speeds the system would benefit from having
finer
granularity. Lightspeed has two magnets in the flywheel, at least
on the
crank position sensor that uses flywheel magnets. Knowing where
the crank
is twice per revolution, at anything over idle speed, is not
exactly rocket
science. At 2400 RPM, that's 4800 magnet passes per minute or 80
passes per
second. Maybe not the extremely fine granularity that other
sensors would
provide, but is it really necessary, when all you're doing is a
simple
lookup map between engine speed and manifold pressure?
Just playing devil's advocate.
do not archive
)_( Dan
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