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IR to ER alternator mod

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mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

Bob,



Here is another IR to ER alternator mod.



I would appreciate your evaluation and comments as I may use this method.



Thanks,



Roger

http://www.falco.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86&Itemi

d=72

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

At 12:21 PM 7/19/2008 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>



Bob,



Here is another IR to ER alternator mod.



I would appreciate your evaluation and comments as I may use this method.



Thanks,



Roger

http://www.falco.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86&Itemi

d=72


	


   I'm not in a position to comb it for details but the

   concept is solid and if the writer has made no errors,

   it will work as advertised. I'm not hard over on removing

   the built in regulators. As a rule, these are perfectly

   satisfactory pieces of electronics. So if your thinking

   runs more in line with Plane Power's approach to adapting

   the IR alternator (and as suggested in the earlier mod

   article) I sure wouldn't have any heartburn over it.



   Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

Roger: I have seen that back a few years ago and 

studied it. I even talked by email to the Gent. 

 

He does a great job of documenting with text and pics 

the mod and explaining background info.

 

I particularly like the "A" version where you control the 

field on the ground side. The mod is clearly very very 

easy. The "B" type mod is more involved and I really 

think the brush holder modification looks a little delicate, 

but if done carefully it should be reliable. 

 

The "A" mod is a thing of beauty, but the down side of 

the "A" controlled field is the following:

 

If you short out your field wire it will go full tilt boogie. 

Of course protecting the field wire with insulation and 

proper routing support is not hard. You can make it 

almost short proof and reliable. The second drawback 

is "A" type external voltage regulators are much less 

common. I found a couple that are  in current 

production. However my favorite external VR is the "B" 

type Transpo V1200, fully digital OV and fault protected 

voltage regulator for about $75. (avail by order at most 

commercial auto elect shops). It is made for heavy duty 

Ford vehicles like an ambulance.

 

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Regulators/Transpo/V1200_Transpo.pdf 

 

 

Unfortunately the V1200 is a "B" type controller varies 

the positive side of the field to control the alternator's 

output.

 

If you want an "A" type, one model off the top of my 

head os for a SEADOO (yes SEADOO):

 

Voltage Set Point: 14.5 V Regulation: A-Circuit   

Transpo #:  4229-124  

SEADOO #: 27800-1241, 27800-1554

http://www.transpo.de/Catalog/Images/4229124.jpg



  There are other "A" type but like this one and you could 

utilize the automotive/sealed connectors.

  

Good luck, personally the internal regulator has thermal 

protection and an IC micro processor which offers way 

more protection. Also there are no DIY home-brew 

solder joints. Keep the internal regulator, supply cooling 

air to it, never turn the alternator ON/OFF while the 

engine is running (ie turn it on before start and off after 

shutdown as it was designed) and your chance of 

problems will be very low. (PS, no crow bar)

  

There are stock ND's that have well over 1000 hours on them.

  

I do recommend you proactively changing brushes at 

750 hours +/- 250 hours. They are cheap and easy to replace. 

Low humidity at altitude is hard on the brushes verses car use.

Also  we tend to run more avg output than a car in a hot cowl 

on a shaking engine, more severe than most cars.

   

  Also don't buy lousy rebuilds and lousy clone alternators. 

There are good vendors and bad ones. If you go with 

PlanePower or even Van (now they are using a better 

aftermarket vendor) you should be fine.

 

If you are doing all this because you are worried that your 

internal regulator will go insane and melt your electical 

system down, you are worrying too much. That story is 

way over blown and very rare. In the cases where damage was 

done the pilot did a few things to make it happen. Most 

failures of ND type alternator are usually not OV but 

they just stop working. When they do lose stable voltage 

 regulation they generally top out in the 16-17 volt range. Most 

modern avionics can work on 10-30 volts all day long. 



  In the event of say an unstable  regulator, lower RPM, 

increase load (landing lights) and ideally you have a 

pull-able CB in the panel for you B-lead, pull CB, reduce 

elect load & land. No fear no dark and stormy night. 

Also IR gives you a LO/Hi volt and fault warning light.

   

Cheers George

   

   

   

  >From: "ROGER &  JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>

 	  Quote: 	
		  Subject: IR to ER alternator mod

Bob,



Here is another IR to ER alternator mod.



I would appreciate your evaluation and comments as I may use this

 >method.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

Thanks,



Roger


	


http://www.falco.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86&Itemid=72



           [quote][b]

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

I forgot about Chrysler, who do make some "A" type regulators. This one has adjustable voltage.

   

Voltage Set Point: 14.3V; Regulation: A-Circuit 

»» Special Heavy Duty Version of C8312

»» Solid State Circuit

»» Superior Loading

»» Adjustable Voltage

»» For 7A Rotors

  FOR USE ON: Chrysler Products 

  

 

  Transpo part #  C8312 

 

  CHRYSLER Part #'s  (x-reference)  

3 438 150

3 755 850

3 755 960

3 874 520

4 091 050

4 111 990

 

  Of course not many external regulators include any over type relay. I recommend power the regulator through one of these (I like it better than the Crow Bar short CB short method.)

   

  http://www.periheliondesign.com/lovm.htm

   

  All the best. George



           [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

At 02:39 PM 7/20/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Roger: I have seen that back a few years ago and

studied it. I even talked by email to the Gent.


	


   <snip>



 	  Quote: 	
		  

If you are doing all this because you are worried that your

internal regulator will go insane and melt your electical

system down, you are worrying too much. That story is

way over blown and very rare.


	


   Over blown? Is that between humongous and gargantuan

   or just under bodacious  . . . I forget.



   But even your words "very rare" says the risk is

   not zero.



 	  Quote: 	
		    In the cases where damage was

done the pilot did a few things to make it happen.


	


   George, go away. You have ZERO evidence of

   that and your accusation is uncalled for.

   The evidence contrary to that statement is

   solid and inarguable which makes your statement

   tantamount to calling goodly numbers of folks

   liars.



 	  Quote: 	
		    Most

failures of ND type alternator are usually not OV but

they just stop working. When they do lose stable voltage

regulation they generally top out in the 16-17 volt range.


	


   Maybe . . . but again, are you ready to offer

   100% coverage insurance for the ones that are not

   "generally" topping out at 17V?



 	  Quote: 	
		    Most

modern avionics can work on 10-30 volts all day long.


	


   But batteries don't. Lights don't. Contactors don't

   and how many OBAM aircraft are fitted only with

   "modern" avionics . . . and exactly when does "modern"

   kick in? 1985? 1996?



 	  Quote: 	
		  

In the event of say an unstable regulator, lower RPM,


	


   Okay, a fully fielded ND puts out full rated current

   at about 4500 shaft RPM. When running at cruise

   (2500 on engine) the alternator is spinning at about

   4x that. So if we want to get the alternator to be

   current limited to say 20A, we need to get it down to

   about 1500 RPM which puts the engine at less than

   idle. What kind of emergency operations procedure

   is that?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

increase load (landing lights) and ideally you have a

pull-able CB in the panel for you B-lead, pull CB, reduce

elect load & land. No fear no dark and stormy night.


	


   But assuming that you can pull a b-lead breaker

   and bring the power back up, the alternator self-

   destructs.



   Your advice is horse-hockey by the bucket-full

   George. Go away.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Also IR gives you a LO/Hi volt and fault warning light.


	


   Which is only a warning light as far as anyone can

   deduce from the lack of schematics to substantiate

   any claims to the contrary. It does nothing to

   actively shut down an alternator being driven by

   a failed regulator.



    . . . and oh yes, if the designers included ov warning

   in their product, could it be that they also believe

   the risk for their product to malfunction is not zero?

   . . . or do you think they included that feature just

   to placate me?



   Go away George. I will not have you trolling this

   List for acolytes in the Cult of the Infallible ND.



   Go start your own List.



   Bob . . .

steve(at)tomasara.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

Bob, Eric, George, JetPilot and the rest of the list:



 From the perspective of someone who has been following the list for a 

while and who is not as ignorant as most of things electrical nor of 

lists supporting the free exchange of ideas and, perhaps most important, 

someone who is not "tribal" in the least, I respectfully ask that Eric, 

George, JetPilot NOT go away. 



I don't have to agree with different viewpoints to appreciate them.  As 

much as we all strive for simple ideas and imagine that correct 

application of logic will always result in absolute truths, the reality 

is that there is much variation in our foundation goals, premises etc. 

that have a great affect on our individual conclusions of what is right 

for each of us.  I, for one, think this list would be greatly enhanced 

if there was less defensive posturing, bile etc. Responses to ideas 

found to be objectionable could be concisely communicated as simply as 

"regarding the idea that ... suffice to say that although there are 

proponents of this approach I strongly disagree with it for reasons that 

are well documented in past posts.  Please do your homework on this idea 

and the alternatives before committing to an approach".



The 'I'm still right and you're still wrong and since you still don't 

agree with me let me explain it to you louder (or longer...)', which, by 

my reading, has been evident in both camps of the great debate seems to 

me to be not just disrespectful to the involved parties but also to the 

list-reading public in general.



Best wishes to all,



Steve Stearns

Boulder/Longmont, Colorado

CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)

Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)

Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D

earl_schroeder(at)juno.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

-- Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> wrote:

<snip>

 	  Quote: 	
		  I don't have to agree with different viewpoints to appreciate them.


	


<snip> 

I, for one, think this list would be greatly enhanced 

 	  Quote: 	
		  if there was less defensive posturing, bile etc. 

<snip>
	




I tend to agree with Steve!  Especially the above quotes.  



As long as the sender's name remains available, I can choose which to read..or agree with..

Earl



Do not archive

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

At 11:14 AM 7/21/2008 -0600, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob, Eric, George, JetPilot and the rest of the list:



 From the perspective of someone who has been following the list for a 

 while and who is not as ignorant as most of things electrical nor of 

 lists supporting the free exchange of ideas and, perhaps most important, 

 someone who is not "tribal" in the least, I respectfully ask that Eric, 

 George, JetPilot NOT go away.


	


  Sorry. This is MY classroom and in this venue,

  it's not a question of opinion and viewpoints.

  It's a question of repeatable experiments and

  good science.



<snip>

 	  Quote: 	
		  The 'I'm still right and you're still wrong and since you still don't 

agree with me let me explain it to you louder (or longer...)', which, by 

my reading, has been evident in both camps of the great debate seems to me 

to be not just disrespectful to the involved parties but also to the 

list-reading public in general.


	


   This List is not frequented by the "public

   in general" and the vast majority of the public

   in general would receive no benefit from hanging

   out here. A "can't we all just get along"

   idea has the effect of leveling the playing

   field to average . . . mediocracy . . .

   an environment crafted to upset the least

   numbers of folks irrespective of their viewpoints

   and opinions. I'd like to believe that the membership

   of this List represents the top slice of individuals

   struggling to build a better than average airplane.



   When you select a doctor, engineer, lawyer or

   teacher, do you want one who has been trained

   in the "everybody is right to some degree" school

   of thought . . . or is the demonstrable best in their

   respective fields?



   George and Paul have demonstrated nothing  . . .

   yet they've wasted a lot of $time$ as we attempted

   to make nice. Eric has demonstrated a great deal

   of initiative and creativity. See:



http://www.periheliondesign.com/

    . . . and he is trying. And I've offered

   to assist his endeavors right here on this List.

   I'll leave it up to those who choose to

   follow the conversation to judge the value

   of investing the $time$.



   Please do not mistake confidence and competence

   with arrogance and conceit. I'm simply exercising

   control over the decorum and quality of this

   activity.



   If your concerns are for making nice (no matter

   what opinions might be offered) you'll need to

   find another group that's more concerned with

   making folks feel better than in helping them

   do the best we know how to do at a budget they

   can afford and technologies their skills and

   $time$ can master.



   Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

andrewbutler(at)ireland.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:41 am Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

Debate is a good thing. Debates only become unpleasant when the participants steer from the rules of logic and induction to the more fuzzy exchanges that are bound by rules of social etiquette. Then people start talking about behaviour and style and all things socially complicated that have nothing whatsover to do with the topic at hand.



My understanding is that this forum was set up not for the purpose of making friends, but rather to help aviation enthusiasts located around the world produce better, safer and more cost effective aeroplanes. This all is much easier if we all stick to verifiable truths, based on logic and rational induction. If stating opinions is important to an individual, then that is fine, as long as those opinions can be demonstrated to be based on reason and logic that can be backed up by verifiable data. Those opinions are then more akin to truth, and are not of the individual at all.



Opinions that are of an individual (by virtue of not being demonstrated as being "truth"), is the source of debates that go sour because the owner of the opinion applies rules of social etiquette to the treatment of the opinion that just don't apply in the world of cold logic and induction. Logic and induction is like a dog with a bone and it won't let go until the truth is proven.



Sure if we all become friends thats great, but enemies? Can't see the logic in that!



Cheers, 

Andrew Butler,

RV71700

Galway

Ireland

 

 [quote]---

steve(at)tomasara.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

Bob,



Thanks for the clarification.  I had not understood this list to be your 

classroom but instead, had confused it for a user forum that supports 

the free exchange of ideas (with which I have more experience).  Your 

list is an educational list and I'm appreciative of it.  Can you (or 

anyone else) suggest an additional aircraft electrical focused 

list/forum that is moderated as a user forum that supports the free 

exchange of ideas?  I, in general, prefer to do my own sorting of wheat 

from chaff and would like to add such a list to those (including this 

one) in which I intend to continue to participate.



Respectfully,



Steve Stearns

Boulder/Longmont, Colorado

CSA,EAA,IAC,AOPA,PE,ARRL,BARC (but ignorant none-the-less)

Restoring (since 1/07): N45FC O235 Longeze Cothern/Friling CF1 (~1000 Hrs)

Flying (since 9/86): N43732 A65 Taylorcraft BC12D

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

I think some of you are missing  an important point about the aeroelectric list: Matt set it up as Bob’s forum for answering builder’s questions about electrical aspects of small airplanes. Bob’s approach has been to make it a classroom, but the important point here is that it is Bob’s forum; he makes the rules. We don’t get to vote on how he runs his classroom or what kinds of disruptions or behavior he allows. That’s his call. I think he does it just right, but it really doesn’t matter what I think.   

   

Terry  

   

     

<snip>  



 My understanding is that this forum was set up not for the purpose of making friends, but rather to help aviation enthusiasts located around the world produce better, safer and more cost effective aeroplanes. This all is much easier if we all stick to verifiable truths, based on logic and rational induction. If stating opinions is important to an individual, then that is fine, as long as those opinions can be demonstrated to be based on reason and logic that can be backed up by verifiable data. Those opinions are then more akin to truth, and are not of the individual at all.

 

 Opinions that are of an individual (by virtue of not being demonstrated as being "truth"), is the source of debates that go sour because the owner of the opinion applies rules of social etiquette to the treatment of the opinion that just don't apply in the world of cold logic and induction. Logic and induction is like a dog with a bone and it won't let go until the truth is proven.  

   



 <snip>  

   

  [quote] [b]

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:53 am Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

At 09:17 AM 7/22/2008 -0700, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I think some of you are missing  an important point about the aeroelectric 

list: Matt set it up as Bob s forum for answering builder s questions 

about electrical aspects of small airplanes. Bob s approach has been to 

make it a classroom, but the important point here is that it is Bob s 

forum; he makes the rules. We don t get to vote on how he runs his 

classroom or what kinds of disruptions or behavior he allows. That s his 

call. I think he does it just right, but it really doesn t matter what I 

think.


	


    True. But lest anyone come to believe this is a

    "closed" activity bounded by restraints on the

    discussion of ideas, please consider the following:



    It's my personal vision and mission goal that I

    spend my time doing exactly what Steve is seeking -

    presiding over an activity that considers every

    idea and checks it for fit into what is already

    known . . . i.e. does the new ingredient make

    an old recipe better . . . or perhaps offers a

    completely new recipe?



    Steve stated that he had followed this List for

    a time but I wonder if he was witness to the behaviors

    of certain individuals who over a period of 5+

    years brought no new ideas to the discussions.

    Ideas they did produce were easily

    Before being asked to leave, they indulged in

    a lot of personal attacks ranging from simple

    innuendo to outright lying.



    I attempted to make-nice for years with some

    notion of winning these folks over with reasoned

    analysis and results of repeatable experiments.

    But alas, it was not to be. It was only then

    that I assumed the obvious duty of any good

    teacher to control the decorum and quality

    of the discussions . . . hence the response

    he witnessed from me last week.



    If it makes any difference, these same individuals

    are infamous for their behaviors in other forums.

    I've been given to understand that they've been

    asked to leave other groups too. My patience

    is probably greater than most but it IS limited.

    We have more important things to do here than

    spend time $time$ indulging irrational temper

    tantrums. I do endeavor to be a good teacher.

    Quashing ideas worthy of consideration is not

    the behavior of a true teacher.



    Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

At 10:37 AM 7/22/2008 +0000, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Debate is a good thing. Debates only become unpleasant when the 

participants steer from the rules of logic and induction to the more fuzzy 

exchanges that are bound by rules of social etiquette. Then people start 

talking about behaviour and style and all things socially complicated that 

have nothing whatsover to do with the topic at hand.



My understanding is that this forum was set up not for the purpose of 

making friends, but rather to help aviation enthusiasts located around the 

world produce better, safer and more cost effective aeroplanes. This all 

is much easier if we all stick to verifiable truths, based on logic and 

rational induction. If stating opinions is important to an individual, 

then that is fine, as long as those opinions can be demonstrated to be 

based on reason and logic that can be backed up by verifiable data. Those 

opinions are then more akin to truth, and are not of the individual at all.



Opinions that are of an individual (by virtue of not being demonstrated as 

being "truth"), is the source of debates that go sour because the owner of 

the opinion applies rules of social etiquette to the treatment of the 

opinion that just don't apply in the world of cold logic and induction. 

Logic and induction is like a dog with a bone and it won't let go until 

the truth is proven.



Sure if we all become friends thats great, but enemies? Can't see the 

logic in that!


	


   Well stated sir. I was searching for those words

   but you've already supplied them!



   Bob . . .

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" 

<nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net (nuckolls.bob(at)cox.net)>

Subject: Re: Re: IR to ER alternator mod

 	  Quote: 	
		  >Bob, Eric, George, JetPilot and the rest of the list:

  >>From the perspective of someone who has been 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >following the list for a

  >>while and who is not as ignorant as most of 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >things electrical nor of lists supporting the free 

>exchange of ideas and, perhaps most important, 

>someone who is not "tribal" in the least, I 

>respectfully ask that Eric, George, JetPilot NOT 

>go away.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sorry. This is MY classroom and in this venue, 

it's not a question of opinion and viewpoints. It's a 

question of repeatable experiments and good 

science.

For you to say you use SCIENCE is just funny. 

  It  reminds me of the 80's Thomas Dolby song 

  "Blinded By Science" where in the chorus he 

  yells, "SCIENCE"!

What do I use, egg salad? You are talking to people, 

including me, with engineering and science degrees. 

  Any freshman engineering, science or medical 

  student learns scientific methods in their labs. 

  That is great you use science, but Bob what 

  relevant facts do you bring with your "science".

What repeatable test have you done regarding IR 

  to ER conversions?

Blurting out "repeatable test" and "good science" is 

a red herring, a non sequitur. It seem like you say it 

  to impress.

  I have 1000's of flight hours behind IR alternators. 

  That is service history. I run my "test" ever time I fly. 

  Every time I do maintenance and check the brushes,  

  I am doing a test and so are all my friends with IR 

  alternators.

I do have more advanced education in engineering, 

  math and science than you Bob, as well as more flight 

  experience and ratings. Advance math is the language 

  of science and the absolute in problem solving and logic. 

  Therefore I must be right since I have more education? 

  Education is irrelevant ...... just like the repeatable 

test pronouncements are irrelevant. You can't win 

arguments but just saying "repeatable test". You 

  can try but it doesn't really work.

BTW before "repeatable test" you must determine 

if a test is VALID! You have to know what and 

why you are testing, what to measure and how to 

measure it. Than you have to validate the data, 

correlate with theoretical analysis or other known 

data. That is why flight  test is done, to verify the 

analysis and component test. I do flight test.

  I flight test my IR alternators many times a week, as 

  do 100's of other pilots with out problem. My IR 

  alternator has been shown to be reliable, as many 

  friends with IR alternators in their planes have shown.

  Matt wants a civil tone and contribution from 

many. I think that is what most members of the list 

want as well. They just don't want the fighting. We 

  can spar but I rather not.

  BOB I HAVE INVITED YOU TO JOIN ME IN 

TESTING AND IMPROVING IR ALTERNATORS. WHY DON'T YOU?

  >>The 'I'm still right and you're still wrong and 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >since you still don't agree with me let me 

>explain it to you louder (or longer...)', which, by 

>my reading, has been evident in  both camps of 

>the great debate seems to me to be not just 

>disrespectful to the involved parties but also to 

>the list-reading public in general.

 	  Quote: 	
		  This List is not frequented by the "public in 

general" and the vast majority of the public in 

general would receive no benefit from hanging 

out here. A "can't we all just get along" idea has the 

 	  Quote: 	
		  effect of leveling the playing . . . field to average . 

. . mediocracy . . .an environment crafted to upset 

the least  numbers of folks irrespective of their 

viewpoints   and opinions. I'd like to believe that 

the membership of this List represents the top 

slice of individuals struggling to build a better 

than average airplane.

  Bob you may think I am the "bottom slice" but you 

don't know me. I have been involved in building 

planes both airliners as and  engineer out of college 

and kit planes since 1985. One of my planes, RV-4, 

  won a workmanship award at a major EAA fly-in. 

  There's nothing mediocre or average about what I do, 

  and have much in common with builders as a builder.

I did go to college and grad school and paid for 

every nickel of it my self, by working. No excuses 

I am proud of that and should be. I also paid every 

nickel of my initial flight training through 5 

instructor ratings and  ATP, which helped me get 

my flying career going, three type ratings and 

+11,000 hours later and still counting. There's nothing 

mediocre Bob, I just bring different things ideals to the 

table as you do. 

  > When you select a doctor, engineer, lawyer or   

 	  Quote: 	
		  teacher, do you want one who has been trained   

in the "everybody is right to some  degree" school  

of thought . . . or is the demonstrable best in their   

respective fields?

  > George and Paul have demonstrated nothing  . . .   

 	  Quote: 	
		  yet they've wasted a lot of $time$ as we 

attempted  to make nice. Eric has demonstrated a 

great deal  of initiative and creativity. See:

  >http://www.periheliondesign.com/

  Well that is just rude and untrue. I have helped 

many people Bob and I know they appreciate it. I 

know Paul has interesting things to say, which I 

enjoy, which helped me. The only one upset is YOU! 

  And how do I cost you money? You mean by 

recommending cool gear that is not B&C, which 

you get a kick back from? Does that make you 

mad? Is that what it is about? OK I will not 

recommend Plane Power any more. It is a 

  free  country and free market. I have no interest 

  in Plane Power , Transpo or Perihelion Design.

  I do want a rich base of knowledge and ideas 

  from more than ONE person. I also want more 

  than one vendor for parts and competition to 

  keep prices down. That is the American way.

  THE BIG UNKNOWN?

  You claim there is no detailed info on IR to satisfy 

you, so you disqualify its use. You just don't want 

to accept the info. I really don't think more info 

would make a difference no matter what I show 

you. I don't think you understand whats going on 

  in an IR. 

  You are set on one idea. Which I am fine with 

  but you seemed like you can tolerate anyone  

  ignoring your advice. If they do they are either 

  dumb or trolls. That is harsh and  dogmatic.

 	  Quote: 	
		     . . . and he is trying. And I've offered  to assist 

his endeavors right here on this List.   I'll leave it 

up to those who choose to   follow the 

conversation to judge the value   of investing the 

$time$.

 	  Quote: 	
		     Please do not mistake confidence and 

competence with arrogance and conceit. I'm 

simply exercising control over the decorum and 

quality of this   activity   

I agree people can make their own minds up. Why 

  are you afraid of other ideas? You claim other input 

  is inferior? Why? More ideas the better.

If your concepts are better they will shine. You 

have to trust people to have the brains to make 

their own minds up. I just want to help people 

  that DO want to IR alternators. I don't want  to 

  sell them on it, only improve upon it for those 

  committed to IR. No criticism of your concepts.

 	  Quote: 	
		  If your concerns are for making nice (no matter   

what opinions might be offered) you'll need to   

find another group that's more concerned with   

making folks feel better than in helping them   do 

the best we know how to do at a budget they   can 

afford and technologies their skills and   $time$ 

can master.

  >   Bob . . .

Bob actually I think you are a little insecure. Bob 

every one agrees and recognizes you are THE 

expert, the MAIN contributor, but you are proving 

it all the time. Stop proving it, we all know and 

respect that. But respect is a two way street.

  Your last two post have helped  me understand how 

  you think and see yourself in this forum, WOW~!

  I get it. I'll try to say out of your way.

           [quote][b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: IR to ER alternator mod

How incredibly arrogant and rude, George. I don't care about your 

ratings or your degrees. If you were so smart, you wouldn't be flying 

for hire.

On listservs I run, you would be gone, right now, blocked from ever 

rejoining for your series of insulting posts and arguments you have been 

told are not welcome. Your lengthy post added zero, was nothing but self 

flagellation and insults.

I ask that Matt block you from this list if Bob won't do it.

This isn't a general list for debate, it is Bob's list to discuss his 

book and its recommendations. You obviously are too lazy to start your 

own list and rather interfere with list belonging to someone else.

That is  most offensive.  The rest of us subscribe to discuss topics 

AeroElectric. We don't want to talk about you. I'll filter your posts 

out from no on, as I have no respect for your antagonistic approach.



gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    



 Bob actually I think you are a little insecure. Bob

 every one agrees and recognizes you are THE

 expert, the MAIN contributor, but you are proving

 it all the time. Stop proving it, we all know and

 respect that. But respect is a two way street.



 Your last two post have helped me understand how

 you think and see yourself in this forum, WOW~!

 I get it. I'll try to say out of your way.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

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