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Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

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hotwheels

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 240

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

What an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out hole gets too large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The others might be fun to try on someone else's project.



Cheers,

Jay



1) AN3 + washer/nut

2) #8 pan head screw +  washer/nut

3) duct tape

4) chewing gum

5) proseal

6) bailing wire

7) more primer

 a good place for an adel clamp



Cheers,

Jay

rv10rob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

I had a couple of these when doing the SB (I did it without removing the aft deck--more trouble than it was worth in retrospect).  I used CherryMax CR-3243-4-x rivets.  Just drill to #27 and they install like normal blind rivets.

   

 This place sells them individually: http://www.ddaircraft.com/subcategory.cfm?Subcategory=CR3243&Category=RIVETS

   

 -Rob

 On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Jay Brinkmeyer <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com (jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Jay Brinkmeyer <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com (jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com)>

 

What an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out hole gets too large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The others might be fun to try on someone else's project.



Cheers,

 Jay



1) AN3 + washer/nut

2) #8 pan head screw +  washer/nut

3) duct tape

4) chewing gum

5) proseal

6) bailing wire

7) more primer

 a good place for an adel clamp



Cheers,

Jay

 

  [quote][b]

flywrights(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

I used 3 AN3-X bolts in my whole SB; two .  There for a while I was wondering if I was helping or hurting the structure.  

  

 Rob



 

 ---

pascal(at)rv10builder.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

too large to fit the old rivet?



I would not recommend using the old rivet, regardless of how much chewing 

gum you use! 



Do you mean the hole is too large for the head of a 470? if so 1 or 2 seem 

fine if you mean the hole is smaller than the head but to big to fit the 

same length in  than simply go up one length of the rivet aka AD4704-4 to 

AD4704-5, etc..



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Brinkmeyer" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 9:00 AM

To: "RV10" <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 What an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out hole 

 gets too large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The 

 others might be fun to try on someone else's project.



 Cheers,

 Jay



 1) AN3 + washer/nut

 2) #8 pan head screw +  washer/nut

 3) duct tape

 4) chewing gum

 5) proseal

 6) bailing wire

 7) more primer

  a good place for an adel clamp



 Cheers,

 Jay

toaster73(at)embarqmail.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

I think the cherry max rivets are oversized to deal with slightly larger 

holes due to removed rivets.

-CHris

#40072

---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

Pascal, when an AN470 universal or an AN426 countersink rivet hole is enlarged or elongated, the next step is to drill for a OOPs rivet which has an NAS designation. They are designed to hide the travesty.  I have trays of them at Paul Grimstad's (no reflection on his drilling prowess).  I cannot recall the ID number but Paul could fill you in.  My trays are -3, -4 and -5's.

  

 The technique of drilling, removing and re-installing comes to all who acquire the Repairman Certificate.  Those who use Professional Gunslingers won' know what they are missing.

  

 John (over night in Miles City, Montana enroute to the BIG ONE or Aviation Mecca '08.)



 

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of pascal

Sent: Thu 7/24/2008 11:54 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

  

--> RV10-List message posted by: "pascal" <pascal(at)rv10builder.net>



too large to fit the old rivet?



I would not recommend using the old rivet, regardless of how much chewing

gum you use! 



Do you mean the hole is too large for the head of a 470? if so 1 or 2 seem

fine if you mean the hole is smaller than the head but to big to fit the

same length in  than simply go up one length of the rivet aka AD4704-4 to

AD4704-5, etc..



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Brinkmeyer" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 9:00 AM

To: "RV10" <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Jay Brinkmeyer <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>



 What an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out hole

 gets too large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The

 others might be fun to try on someone else's project.



 Cheers,

 Jay



 1) AN3 + washer/nut

 2) #8 pan head screw +  washer/nut

 3) duct tape

 4) chewing gum

 5) proseal

 6) bailing wire

 7) more primer

  a good place for an adel clamp



 Cheers,

 Jay

&ghref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic            &href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
	


nbsp;       - List Contribution Web Site bsp;                    -Matt Dralle, List href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=================





 [quote][b]

pascal(at)rv10builder.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

certainly good points and thanks to Tim's  recommendation I have a draw of Oops rivets myself. In the SB case however  these are 470-4 rivets not 470-3 than require an Oops to repair. Jay is looking  for an option for his larger 470-4 rivet, I have used one size larger with -4  rivets. Done slowly has shown good results.

 Also as a reminder from the Section 5, Jay was  right with his two options- "One of the common calls we  get is “I had to drill out a bad rivet and now the hole is oversize. What do I  do?”. Sometimes this is done multiple times in the same hole and now the hole is  so large that the builder has to use a bolt and nut instead of a  rivet."

 Additionally for us gunslingers, with the technique  of drilling maybe shouldn’t be drilling to start with:

 EXCERPT from Alcoa Aluminum Rivet Book, dated  1984.

 “The standards to which driven rivets should  conform are frequently uncertain. In addition to dimensions and perfection of  shape,

 inspection is concerned with whether the drive head  is coaxial with the shank (not “clinched”) and whether there is  excessive

 cracking of the heads. It has been determined that  even badly cracked heads are satisfactory from the standpoint of static  strength,

 fatigue strength and resistance to corrosion.  (Poorly set and cracked) rivet heads were tested in tension to determine how  well

 formed a head has to be in order to develop full  strength. The tensile strengths of all the rivets were within five per cent of  the

 strongest. The test indicated that minor deviations  from the theoretically desired shape of head are not cause for concern or  replacement.

 The second rivet that is  driven in any one hole likely to be more defective than the first because the  hole is enlarged

 and rivet will be more  likely to buckle and form an imperfect head."

  

 I stand by my using a  larger rivet in this case because we HAD to drill and rivet again. I did it and  it worked just fine.

  

 Pascal

  

  



  From: John Cox (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com) 

 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 8:29 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: RE: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470  rivet?

 



  Pascal, when an AN470  universal or an AN426 countersink rivet hole is enlarged or elongated, the next  step is to drill for a OOPs rivet which has an NAS designation. They are  designed to hide the travesty.  I have trays of them at Paul Grimstad's (no  reflection on his drilling prowess).  I cannot recall the ID number but  Paul could fill you in.  My trays are -3, -4 and -5's.

  

 The technique of drilling, removing and  re-installing comes to all who acquire the Repairman Certificate.  Those  who use Professional Gunslingers won' know what they are missing.

  

 John (over night in Miles City, Montana  enroute to the BIG ONE or Aviation Mecca '08.)



 

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on  behalf of pascal

Sent: Thu 7/24/2008 11:54 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the  equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

  

--> RV10-List message posted by: "pascal"  <pascal(at)rv10builder.net>



too large to fit the old rivet?



I  would not recommend using the old rivet, regardless of how much chewing

gum  you use! 



Do you mean the hole is too large for the head of a 470? if  so 1 or 2 seem

fine if you mean the hole is smaller than the head but to big  to fit the

same length in  than simply go up one length of the rivet aka  AD4704-4 to

AD4704-5,  etc..



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay  Brinkmeyer" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008  9:00 AM

To: "RV10" <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Sb  08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List  message posted by: Jay Brinkmeyer  <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>



 What an acceptable substitute  for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out hole

 gets too large to fit the old  rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The

 others might be fun to try on  someone else's project.



 Cheers,

 Jay



 1)  AN3 + washer/nut

 2) #8 pan head screw +  washer/nut

 3) duct  tape

 4) chewing gum

 5) proseal

 6) bailing wire

  7) more primer

  a good place for an adel clamp



  Cheers,

  Jay

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nbsp;        - List Contribution Web Site  bsp;                     -Matt Dralle, List  href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=================





[quote]



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[b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

Laying here in the NoTell Motel in Miles City the revelation came to me last night.  NAS1097-x-x



 

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of John Cox

Sent: Thu 7/24/2008 8:29 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

   Pascal, when an AN470 universal or an AN426 countersink rivet hole is enlarged or elongated, the next step is to drill for a OOPs rivet which has an NAS designation. They are designed to hide the travesty.  I have trays of them at Paul Grimstad's (no reflection on his drilling prowess).  I cannot recall the ID number but Paul could fill you in.  My trays are -3, -4 and -5's.

  

 The technique of drilling, removing and re-installing comes to all who acquire the Repairman Certificate.  Those who use Professional Gunslingers won' know what they are missing.

  

 John (over night in Miles City, Montana enroute to the BIG ONE or Aviation Mecca '08.)



 

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of pascal

Sent: Thu 7/24/2008 11:54 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

  

--> RV10-List message posted by: "pascal" <pascal(at)rv10builder.net>



too large to fit the old rivet?



I would not recommend using the old rivet, regardless of how much chewing

gum you use! 



Do you mean the hole is too large for the head of a 470? if so 1 or 2 seem

fine if you mean the hole is smaller than the head but to big to fit the

same length in  than simply go up one length of the rivet aka AD4704-4 to

AD4704-5, etc..



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Brinkmeyer" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 9:00 AM

To: "RV10" <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Jay Brinkmeyer <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>



 What an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out hole

 gets too large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The

 others might be fun to try on someone else's project.



 Cheers,

 Jay



 1) AN3 + washer/nut

 2) #8 pan head screw +  washer/nut

 3) duct tape

 4) chewing gum

 5) proseal

 6) bailing wire

 7) more primer

  a good place for an adel clamp



 Cheers,

 Jay

&ghref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic            &href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
	


nbsp;       - List Contribution Web Site bsp;                    -Matt Dralle, List href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=================





[quote]


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[b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

Drilling rivets do not necessarily mandate going oversized after removal.  The need for a large bit is often the result of eyesight, hand coordination and the possibility of multiple sheets of skin fastened together.  It is not uncommon using typical techniques to get up to three removals before things begin to get questionable.  Us older guys use more OOPs and the younger tykes can often pull off miracles.

  

 The OOPs can keep the head appearing to conform to a correctly driven original rivet.

  

 I keep lots of OOPs and seldom need them.



 

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of pascal

Sent: Thu 7/24/2008 9:42 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

  certainly good points and thanks to Tim's recommendation I have a draw of Oops rivets myself. In the SB case however these are 470-4 rivets not 470-3 than require an Oops to repair. Jay is looking for an option for his larger 470-4 rivet, I have used one size larger with -4 rivets. Done slowly has shown good results.

 Also as a reminder from the Section 5, Jay was right with his two options- "One of the common calls we get is “I had to drill out a bad rivet and now the hole is oversize. What do I do?”. Sometimes this is done multiple times in the same hole and now the hole is so large that the builder has to use a bolt and nut instead of a rivet."

 Additionally for us gunslingers, with the technique of drilling maybe shouldn’t be drilling to start with:

 EXCERPT from Alcoa Aluminum Rivet Book, dated 1984.

 “The standards to which driven rivets should conform are frequently uncertain. In addition to dimensions and perfection of shape,

 inspection is concerned with whether the drive head is coaxial with the shank (not “clinched”) and whether there is excessive

 cracking of the heads. It has been determined that even badly cracked heads are satisfactory from the standpoint of static strength,

 fatigue strength and resistance to corrosion. (Poorly set and cracked) rivet heads were tested in tension to determine how well

 formed a head has to be in order to develop full strength. The tensile strengths of all the rivets were within five per cent of the

 strongest. The test indicated that minor deviations from the theoretically desired shape of head are not cause for concern or replacement.

 The second rivet that is driven in any one hole likely to be more defective than the first because the hole is enlarged

 and rivet will be more likely to buckle and form an imperfect head."

  

 I stand by my using a larger rivet in this case because we HAD to drill and rivet again. I did it and it worked just fine.

  

 Pascal

  

  



  From: John Cox (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com) 

 Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 8:29 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: RE: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

 



  Pascal, when an AN470 universal or an AN426 countersink rivet hole is enlarged or elongated, the next step is to drill for a OOPs rivet which has an NAS designation. They are designed to hide the travesty.  I have trays of them at Paul Grimstad's (no reflection on his drilling prowess).  I cannot recall the ID number but Paul could fill you in.  My trays are -3, -4 and -5's.

  

 The technique of drilling, removing and re-installing comes to all who acquire the Repairman Certificate.  Those who use Professional Gunslingers won' know what they are missing.

  

 John (over night in Miles City, Montana enroute to the BIG ONE or Aviation Mecca '08.)



 

  From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of pascal

Sent: Thu 7/24/2008 11:54 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

  

--> RV10-List message posted by: "pascal" <pascal(at)rv10builder.net>



too large to fit the old rivet?



I would not recommend using the old rivet, regardless of how much chewing

gum you use! 



Do you mean the hole is too large for the head of a 470? if so 1 or 2 seem

fine if you mean the hole is smaller than the head but to big to fit the

same length in  than simply go up one length of the rivet aka AD4704-4 to

AD4704-5, etc..



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Jay Brinkmeyer" <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 9:00 AM

To: "RV10" <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Jay Brinkmeyer <jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.com>



 What an acceptable substitute for an AN470 rivet when a drilled out hole

 gets too large to fit the old rivet? My best guess are #1 or #2. The

 others might be fun to try on someone else's project.



 Cheers,

 Jay



 1) AN3 + washer/nut

 2) #8 pan head screw +  washer/nut

 3) duct tape

 4) chewing gum

 5) proseal

 6) bailing wire

 7) more primer

  a good place for an adel clamp



 Cheers,

 Jay

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nbsp;       - List Contribution Web Site bsp;                    -Matt Dralle, List href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=================





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[b]

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

Jay,

I think the thread has drifted a little. The NAS1097 is an Oops rivet for an AN426, and you were talking about a buggered hole for an AN470A4, right? My choices would be:

AN470A5-x  with a tensile strength of 16,000

AN470AD5-x with a tensile strength of 38,000

#8 screw with a tensile strength of 60,000

AN3-x with a tensile strength of 125,000



John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

hotwheels

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 240

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

This is good information and seems to reflect exactly what I was wanting to know... How good is good enough? The original hole was way buggered (just one!). 



The new hole is fairly large and at this point it's probably easiest to just live with a screw/nut and call it a day as riveting this particular hole again could just make it worse (Murphy is alive and well).



Cheers,

Jay



<snip>

      I think the thread has drifted a little. The NAS1097 is an Oops rivet for an AN426,

      and you were talking about a buggered hole for an AN470A4, right? My choices

      would be:

      AN470A5-x  with a tensile strength of 16,000

      AN470AD5-x with a tensile strength of 38,000

      #8 screw with a tensile strength of 60,000

      AN3-x with a tensile strength of 125,000

      

      John

      

      --------

      #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished

      N711JG reserved

AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

John Goodman has it correct. Bolt or 470-AD5-x rivets. Spruce sells some of the #5 rivets - I bought a few (470-AD-5-6 ) and the #5 set to fix the buggered holes in my SB work. About 10-12 bucks - not too bad to set. I used the same 60# of air pressure that I used on the #4 rivets and whacked a few extra times. I think that we hit it 12-15 times. We sill screwed up one mfg head, but decided not to drill it out as it is soooo much stronger than the #4. Cheap piece of mind.

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

John Kirkland

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 19
Location: South Weber, UT

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Sb 08-6-1: What's the equivalent of an AN470 rivet?

I was able to scrounge a small handfull of AN470AD5 from my local A&P at the airport just for the asking. I just cut to the length I need.

_________________
RV-10 #40333
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