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ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: VG's

after the results I saw today  with VG's Im not  sold on em and I have a new set I will sell you  if you really believe they  work that good 

 I guess I am with John H on this one  

  

 Ellery in Maine 

 do not archive  and do not install VG's  

  

  In a message dated 7/26/2008 5:31:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "pj.ladd"    <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>



plane might fly just fine in most cases    with an aft limit, but then be 

unable to recover from a    spin,>>



Hi,

I understand that the Thud could not be got out of    a flat spin. Standard 

drill was to take your hands and feet off, and wait.    That took guts.



Cheers



Pat    es  y       -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  nbsp;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================



	




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  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: VG's

 	  Quote: 	
		   after the results I saw today  with VG's Im not  sold on em and I have a new 

 set I will sell you  if you really believe they  work that good 

 I guess I am with John H on this one 

  

 Ellery in Maine 

 
	




Hi Folks:



Don't think I ever said how well they do or do not work.  However, I did say I have no requirement for them on my mkIII.



john h

mkIII

Huntsville, TN Cruising the beautiful mountains on my ATV.  Using the WIFI in front of the Court House, Sheriff's Office, and the local jail.  Double towing the 5th wheel and ATV trailer illegally in TN.  Hope a concerned Sheriff's Deputy doesn't arrest me and put me in that old jail house.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: Re: VG's

Ellery,



If you did not see a huge improvement with VG's on your Kolb, then you either screwed up the installation, or you are not a good enough pilot to recognize the improvements in flight charismatics.  The benefits of VG's on Kolbs are very well documented.



I have no axe to grind with you, and I am not trying to bash you here on the list.  I do think you need to hear the facts in a very direct and unbiased manner, then do what you like.



Good Luck,



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

bartmo(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: VG's

Ellery,

  What brand and price for VGs?

  Bart M



jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com wrote:

  [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   after the results I saw today with VG's Im not sold on em and I have a new 

 set I will sell you if you really believe they work that good 

 I guess I am with John H on this one 

 

 Ellery in Maine 


	




Hi Folks:



Don't think I ever said how well they do or do not work. However, I did say I have no requirement for them on my mkIII.



john h

mkIII

Huntsville, TN Cruising the beautiful mountains on my ATV. Using the WIFI in front of the Court House, Sheriff's Office, and the local jail. Double towing the 5th wheel and ATV trailer illegally in TN. Hope a concerned Sheriff's Deputy doesn't arrest me and put me in that old jail [quote][b]

Steven Green

Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 118

Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: VG's

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ellery,



 If you did not see a huge improvement with VG's on your Kolb, then you 

 either screwed up the installation, or you are not a good enough pilot to 

 recognize the improvements in flight charismatics.  The benefits of VG's 

 on Kolbs are very well documented.



 I have no axe to grind with you, and I am not trying to bash you here on 

 the list.  I do think you need to hear the facts in a very direct and 

 unbiased manner, then do what you like.



 Good Luck,



 Mike




	


Mike,



If you have such a need for VGs on YOUR Kolb then you either screwed up the 

plane or you are not a good enough pilot to recognize that it is a great 

flying plane without them.



Sorry Guys, just couldn't hold back

do not archive



Steven

_________________
Steven Green

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:07 am Post subject: VG's

Jetpilot 

 it was not my plane and I didn't install the VG's on  it I was just test flying it for a friend   why don't you ever have  anything  decent to say to anyone on this list every time there's and  argument why is it Your always involved in it?  You have an axe to grind  with me now I hope for your sake we don't ever run in to each other sparks are  going to fly 

 and I am sure I am very capable of recognizing  a  change of flight in the same plane with VG's installed and You know nothing of  my abilities so why don't you go "excuse my language but" F#%k Your self and  mind your own business  

 Oh yah as always You think you have all the answers,  what a Joke 

  

 Ellery in Maine 

 do not archive

  

  In a message dated 7/27/2008 1:05:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot"    <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>



Ellery,



If you did not see a huge    improvement with VG's on your Kolb, then you either screwed up the    installation, or you are not a good enough pilot to recognize the improvements    in flight charismatics.  The benefits of VG's on Kolbs are very well    documented.



I have no axe to grind with you, and I am not trying to    bash you here on the list.  I do think you need to hear the facts in a    very direct and unbiased manner, then do what you like.



Good    Luck,



Mike



--------

&quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If    you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!



Kolb    MK-III Xtra, 912-S





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195226#195226

	




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  [quote][b]

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: VG's

thanks for you view on this  Steven      GOOD POINT !!

  

 Ellery 

 do not archive

  

  In a message dated 7/27/2008 7:41:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  Kolbdriver(at)bellsouth.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "Steven Green"    <Kolbdriver(at)bellsouth.net>



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message    posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>



    Ellery,



 If you did not see a huge improvement with VG's on    your Kolb, then you 

 either screwed up the installation, or you are    not a good enough pilot to 

 recognize the improvements in flight    charismatics.  The benefits of VG's 

 on Kolbs are very well    documented.



 I have no axe to grind with you, and I am not    trying to bash you here on 

 the list.  I do think you need to    hear the facts in a very direct and 

 unbiased manner, then do what you    like.



 Good Luck,



    Mike




	


Mike,



If you have such a need for VGs on YOUR Kolb    then you either screwed up the 

plane or you are not a good enough pilot to    recognize that it is a great 

flying plane without them.



Sorry Guys,    just couldn't hold back

do not archive



Steven    es  y       -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  nbsp;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================



	




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  [quote][b]

tkrolfe(at)toast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: VG's

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   *thanks for you view on this Steven      GOOD POINT !!*

 ** 

 *Ellery *

 *do not archive*

  

 In a message dated 7/27/2008 7:41:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 

 Kolbdriver(at)bellsouth.net writes:

Ellery & Steven,
	




While I understand your frustration with the idiot that has invaded our 

List group, trying to reason with him it totally fruitless.  I am guilty 

of trying to do so also and now realize that it is in vain.  He is one 

of those personality types that thrives on getting normal people upset 

by making outrageous statements and being offensive in every way 

possible.  I'm sure he gotten away with this lifestyle way too long to 

be able to change and it's real easy to hide behind the internet where 

your not going to get a bloody nose or black eye for your childish, 

stupid behavior.



This type of individual thrives on the  kind of response we are 

providing and the best method of dealing with him would be for everyone 

to ignore his existence.  *No Response to his messages* would be the 

best way of dealing with him.  He needs the emotional responses to 

validate his rightest, superior attitude.  Eventually, without getting 

his anticipated responses, he will wither away.



Terry -  FireFly #95

vicsv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: VG's

Hey yoos guys My ears are burnin.

  

 I put the VG's in question on my own plane. I made  vinyl templates on my PC, exact dimentions, exact  angles and cut them out using a vinyl cutter.  They are equally spaced between ribs.

  

 Ellery is a friend of mine so let me do the bashing  on list cause if you where not I'd hate to see if you were.

 He was a little quick to judgement since the whole  flight lasted only 18 mins.

 He wasn't wearing his glasses, so I was watching  gauges.

 It was a hot day with 2 on board in crappy  air.

 It stalled at about 42 to 43 mph which is what it's  suposed to do with 1 pilot in good conditions.

 Hardly reliable anyway when the nose is pointed  that far up. There must be odd pressure forces on the pito from the flat  bottomed nose.

 Takeoff was 250-275 ft. tail up and pretty much  perpendicular to the runway, Ellery still thinks  its his Firestar were flying. He likes to cram on all power, bend the right  ruder pedal and go for it.

 Twice we landed at about 50mph. The last time we  did that pre VG's at 50 we hit the ground from lack of lift.

 My opinion, there was improvement, not much but  hardly a proper flight test.

  

 What are the published #'s for the Xtra with  flapperons? I can't find the the info before the recent mods?

  

 Vic

 Maine

 912 ul

  

   [quote][b]

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: VG's

At 06:33 AM 7/28/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Jetpilot 

 it was not my plane why don't you go "excuse my language but" F#%k Your self and mind your own business  

 Oh yah as always You think you have all the answers, what a Joke 

  

 Ellery in Maine 

 	


 You're not going to take that - are you Jetpilot ??

     [quote][b]

_________________
Possum

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject: VG's

I guess I have missed some of the input on VG's when I see all these comments. I have a Mark111 / 912UL and have VG's that I am going to TRY to see if I notice any improvment and if not C off them come. I hate to see people that haven't tried something put others down like I have seen on here. I sold and worked on boats for year. Being a dealer rigged many..many of the same boats and engines just alike. One thing I found was not every one ran the same and had to be tweeked C nothing worst than two of the same boats and one would out do the other C customers not happy. I think this MAY be true of our planes also that we build C where one thing works for one it isn't going to on another. All I can say is keep an open mind and make your own call C your flying it !!!

  Date: Mon C 28 Jul 2008 14:23:47 -0400

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

From: possums(at)bellsouth.net

Subject: Re: Re: VG's

At 06:33 AM 7/28/2008 C you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Jetpilot 

it was not my plane why don't you go "excuse my language but" F#%k Your self and mind your own business 

Oh yah as always You think you have all the answers C what a Joke 

Ellery in Maine 

You're not going to take that - are you Jetpilot ??

[quote]

arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

[b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

Given the report on Ellerys test results on VG's, your my statement about Ellery was right on the money.   When I said Ellery was not a good enough pilot to recognize the improvements, I was correct.  Anyone that makes a statement like Ellery did after the 18 minute test flight described definitely has a lot to learn about flying.  I have never claimed to have all the answers, but I when I do write something here on the list, you can bet that I have checked my facts and what I post is good information.  When Ellery posted bad information about VG's,  that is contrary to my own experience, and what many others have reported here on the list, it was very obvious that something was wrong.



Most of these little pissing matches here are due to some small people that can not handle being told they are wrong in public.  Ellery on VG's ,   PlaneCrazzy on electric trim, and others as well that have become vindictive because I pointed out in public they were wrong.  Ellery complained about me, and then in the next sentence posts something far worse than I have ever posted here on the list, I am sure most people will recognize hypocrisy when they see it.    I don't care about the little cliques here on the list, or who likes who..  This list is about posting good and accurate information to those that need it.  If I see someone is so irresponsible as to post bad information that is a disservice to other pilots, I will point it out every time.  

Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:51 am Post subject: VG's

I am not like you it doesn't take me a month to see a  what is suppose to be a big difference in an airplane  That I have  already flown. 

 I don't think we need to take a Vote on how many times  you have pissed people off here thinking you know more than anyone else and Yes  you do think you have all the answers. 

 I am not like that at all I am willing to say I don't  have all the answers but I am also willing to listen to others something you can  not do   

 and just like Steven Said If you have  such a need for VGs on YOUR Kolb then you either screwed up the 

plane or you  are not a good enough pilot to recognize that it is a great 

flying plane  without them

   You are Going back on my SPAM list I have listen  to your crap for the last time 

  

 Ellery 

 do not  archive





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  [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: Re: VG's

 	  ElleryWeld(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  

 and just like Steven Said If you have  such a need for VGs on YOUR Kolb then you either screwed up the 

plane or you  are not a good enough pilot to recognize that it is a great 

flying plane  without them

 	


My Kolb flys better than any other Kolb out there as far as I am concerned, and I NEVER said that the Kolb is not a great flying plane without VG's.  The Kolbs are very nice flying planes compared to other planes in the same class, with or without VG's.  



What I DID say was that VG's are a great improvement for Kolbs, it is a well proven fact that anyone on this list can verify through years research and pilot reports.   The fact that Ellery and Steven green had to resort to using a play on words to try to confuse this fact tells me one thing:



Ellery and Steven green put their own personal agendas above helping other pilots that read this list.  Ellery and Steven Green are willing to do a disservice, to try to mislead other Kolb owners, and post bad information to suit their own personal agendas.   These are the LAST type of people I would listen to for advice.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

   I'm with you Ellery,



.

.

.

Just a constant eyesore on this list....

Which I avoid like the Plague....

.

.

.

 Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN

.

.

.

Last edited by planecrazzzy on Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

There are lots of forums on the internet, and it is common to have disagreements on them, it is inevitable no matter what the subject.   Most people are adult enough to deal with it, post what they need to post and move on.   On very rare occasion you hear of people that threaten others with violence, etc. etc.   I, as most others that I know have always just shaken our heads when we hear of something like this, only the lowest, most disturbed human trash would threaten someone because of a disagreement on the internet.  



To give you a bit of history, Planecrazzzy and I corresponded in some private messages about a couple Kolb items, always cordially.   One day I told Planecrazzzy that he was wrong on this list in a pretty nice way in this thread, you are all welcome to read it for yourselves.  



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=36500&highlight=electric+trim



The reaction by Planecrazzzy was nothing short of bizarre...  Its all there for everyone to read.  The fact that Planecrazzzy has resorted to threatening me many months later just shows what a disturbed individual he is.   



A certain group of people here have always taken sides, applying standards of conduct to some on this list, while ignoring the likes of Ellery and Planecrazzy posting some of the worst things to have ever been seen on the matronics forums.    It speaks very poorly for all involved that have supported this bashing of on the list to the point where people can think they can threaten, and try to indimidate other members of this list.   I will be writing the matronics administrator about this,  Planecrazzzy has corssed a line here that no one should ignore here.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: Re: VG's

JMO,



I would recommend, as a safety measure, no punitive action at all and simply ignoring the offending threads/people.



One has to be very careful with what comes in out of the night onto the internet - it's like poking a cornered bear with a sharp stick, you never know how he's going to react. When threats begin to appear, it's time to duck out because then you really don't know what you're dealing with.



Some examples:



I got into a debate once on one of the USENET newsgroups with a guy who didn't understand how stall was determined by AOA and not airspeed. A couple of the CFI's on that list got involved too and the thread quickly got pretty hot.



The guy sure enough was a nutcase - he ended up calling the local FSDO in the area I was living and lodging a complaint that I was buzzing some local houses or something like that.

I almost had to retain an attorney, but fortunately it ended once it was discovered the caller was a crank.

He did similar things to the several CFI's that had been involved also.



And there are other cases where the damage done by the nutcase was far far worse, the infamous Robert L. Bass incident on rec.aviation.homebuilt comes to mind. There some legal blood was spilt before it was all over and the results were very ugly for a couple of the list members.



And so on for other nutcases/lists that I'm sure we all are familiar with.



Nowadays my strategy is just to hone in on the point of fact and try to keep everything else out of it (tho I still sometimes drop a mild Ad Hominum here and there, always regretting it later). 



There's a lot of weirdness out there - you don't want em finding out who and where you are, because it can really end up following you.



My .02,



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

I went to that page..... it just said Jet Pilot was a moron....



Look for yourself....



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=36500&highlight=electric+trim  



 Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN

.

.

.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

Deleted..

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: VG's

I started to post a response in my last post, but this garbage has gone on long enough.   Its a turning into a petty pissing match that needs to end.



Planecrazzzy, I do no want to see you off the list, or anyone else.  I expect the same courtesy in return from everyone.   As far as threats, they have no place here, I see the threat was deleted, which is a good start.   There are so many more important things than petty arguments on the Internet.



I have met some of the people things got pretty hot with in the past.  I met Rick Neilsen at Sun and Fun, and he came up and said hi, which I thought was pretty cool.    I have gotten into it pretty good with Mike Welch at times, but he did try to help me out when he thought I had created a dangerous situation with my airplane.



As far as I am concerned, these little pissing matches are far to easy to get into behind a screen and a keyboard, and that is exactly where I leave them.  If any of you guys ever needed help with your plane in real life, Ellery and Planecrazzzy included, I would not hesitate to help any of you guys out.   All this nastiness and bitterness goes away as soon as I turn off the computer.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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