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steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld. Guest
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Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Dear All,
I hope I am not repeating a thread but I would appreciate input from the
forum on where builders have positioned their regulators. My reason for
asking is that I may have an intermittent fault in the electrical generation
system and having done some fault tracing with Conrad Beale and Skydrive it
is pointing to the rectifier and the possibility that it has become 'cooked'
and thus developed the intermittent workings.
My fitment is on the flat above the pilot's footwell, but the opinion
expressed so far is that there is not enough air circulation to keep it
cool, especially after landing. I still have the side gills to the top
cowling.
Thanks in anticipation.
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH Trigear XS.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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s(at)vestuti.orangehome.c Guest
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Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Hi Steve,
i originally fitted the regulator to the stb. footwell - it failed at 8 hrs.
- possibly exhaust heat on the ground,
i repositioned it behind the plenum chamber on the firewall and so far so good 60 Hrs later,
steve G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail Guest
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Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Hi Steve,
I have mine fitted in the same place as you. Hopefully I am not
tempting fate here, but I have 4.3 years / 815 hours of trouble free
operation.
Regards, Paul
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topglock(at)cox.net Guest
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Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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My regulator is positioned on top the passenger footwell, inboard, next
to the LG frame. Not a hint of failure at 400 hours.
Jeff - Baby Blue, -slightly modified, original cowl, going to paint,
this week.
steve v wrote:
Quote: |
Hi Steve,
i originally fitted the regulator to the stb. footwell - it failed at 8 hrs.
- possibly exhaust heat on the ground,
i repositioned it behind the plenum chamber on the firewall and so far so good 60 Hrs later,
steve G-CEBV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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Bryan Allsop
Joined: 29 Jun 2007 Posts: 78
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Hi Steve C
�
My regulator is positioned on the firewall behind the plenum chamber C without a heat sink. Last time he did an annual�inspection Graham Singleton looked at it oddly C and asked if I had experienced problems with the regulator. Apparently overheating�had been�common problem. I told him that I had not C and forgot about it.
�
Only last week I had a radio failure in flight. I noticed that the voltage had dropped and returned to investigate. Sure enough C there was no voltage from the Ducati regulator to the battery. After an hour or two trying to prove to myself that I did not need to buy a new regulator C I failed C and had to spend �75 + del.�to purchase a new one.
�
Retrospectively C I can look back and recognise that the failure has been taking place intermittently for more than a year. I can recall odd times when the voltage had dropped C and I put it down to other things. More recently it has taken a little time for the voltage to come up to the charging level. It is a bit like old age C you begin to accept that visiting the bathroom in the middle of the night is normal.
�
My recent investigations illustrate that there is quite a history overheating problems with Ducati regulators. Hopefully the later models have been improved. Certainly the back of my unit does not give a good heat sink area. Despite this C the regulator has been installed and working for over eight years.
�
This all leads me to suggest that you would be well advised to position the regulator in a way which will minimise heating problems. A good heat sink would be an advantage.
�
Hope this helps.
�
Bryan
�
Quote: | From: steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator
Date: Sun C 3 Aug 2008 19:33:01 +0100
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Steven Pitt" <steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com>
Dear All C
I hope I am not repeating a thread but I would appreciate input from the
forum on where builders have positioned their regulators. My reason for
asking is that I may have an intermittent fault in the electrical generation
system and having done some fault tracing with Conrad Beale and Skydrive it
is pointing to the rectifier and the possibility that it has become 'cooked'
and thus developed the intermittent workings.
My fitment is on the flat above the pilot's footwell C but the opinion
expressed so far is that there is not enough air circulation to keep it
cool C especially after landing. I still have the side gills to the top
cowling.
Thanks in anticipation.
Steve Pitt
G-SMDH Trigear XS.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
&g============
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Get more from your digital life. Find out how. [quote][b]
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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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That mode of (slow) regulator failure is common. And not just on Europas.
I have it creeping up on me too, but can confirm that the regulator does not see more than 40C (as measured on the body of the regulator), except perhaps after shutdown, at which time there would be no greater junction temperature, which should be able to endure in excess of 100C . So the failure mode may not necessarily be related to temperature.
Duncan McF.
[quote] ---
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europabill(at)bellsouth.n Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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For what it's worth, I got John Wigney's rectifier/regulator when his died and disected it. Only parts I could find bad were the two rectifier diodes (MR2510) and they are directly mounted to the heat sink. You can't repair though as the whole thing is potted and you basically tear it up when you open it.......
I guess the answer is to watch Ebay for a cheap replacement.
Bill
A010 Classic Monowheel
60% Done 150% to go
[quote] ---
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josok-e(at)ukolo.fi Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Mine failed just over 150 h. It's mounted inside the panel, to keep it out of the heat of the engine. I really do not believe the error rate of this component is environmental heat related. It's more of a quality issue. Some time ago there was a similar thread, and if i remember correctly there was a German origin alternative offered.
Anyhow, in my case there happened more then bargained for. The red lamp came during flight, and shortly after a low voltage warning. Since i can switch everything over to the second power system, i was not worried, and did the 3 hrs 30 mins leg to the rotax dealer as intended. There the engine was checked for damage after the wheel up landing, and i mentioned the probable regulator failure. However, the charge lamp was and stayed out. During the test flight thereafter i noticed that there was still no charge. My assumption was that the red lamp had burned out, and that everything would be fine after i would have replaced the regulator. That assessment was wrong, as later turned out. After about one hour in the next flight, smoke appeared in the cockpit, and i asked for an immediate landing at a nearby airport. In the 5 minutes it took to land the plane, the smoke started to vanish. The smell was something i had smelled before, but could not immediately place. Examination sho
wed that the large smoothing capacitor had cooked itself empty.
The sequence of events has been, that this regulator developed a fault, and put AC current to the battery and capacitor. After a while the 30 amp battery fuse had blown, with the result that the charge control lamp does not light. After that fuse had blown, the full AC power of the charging coils was released on the capacitor, which gave way, causing an emergency landing.
Lessons learned: Do not keep flying with a red lamp on. Do not assume anything, check and correct before the next flight. Having an alternative system is great, but creates overconfidence on the downside.
Question unanswered: There is text on the regulator: Do not take the battery off line with a running engine. If you look at the Rotax manual, that is exactly what the main switch or contactor does. Maybe the regulator blew up dangerously when i tried to recycle the main switch. Also a blown battery fuse takes the battery off line. On the other hand, there is no fuse in the charge coil circuit. In this case, the connector shows melting marks, and solder has dripped from the one of the AC connector tabs.
In other words: There is no protection from defect rectifiers in the regulator. IMHO there should be a fuse in the circuit too. Unless i get contradictionary information, that fuse will be there after the next service stop.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Bill Henderson a �crit :
Quote: | For what it's worth, I got John Wigney's rectifier/regulator when his
died and disected it. Only parts I could find bad were the two
rectifier diodes (MR2510) and they are directly mounted to the heat
sink. You can't repair though as the whole thing is potted and you
basically tear it up when you open it.......
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Hi all,
For what it's worth, I made some investigation with the help of a
friend, and opened a few failed Rotax regulators.
It appears that the more power you draw from the regulator, the higher
the junction temperature, and the more likely the failure.
Bob Nuckolls provides a nice circuit proposition for the Rotax
alternator/regulator, with overvoltage protection.
I personnally would and did shun the Rotax circuit proposition.
Also, I would like to point out that the alarm lamp is driven by the
regulator, and so can't be expected to provide any degree of protection.
Some pictures and thermal info here
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Gilles
that study was fascinating! Thank you.
Graham
GTH wrote:
Quote: |
Hi all,
For what it's worth, I made some investigation with the help of a
friend, and opened a few failed Rotax regulators.
It appears that the more power you draw from the regulator, the higher
the junction temperature, and the more likely the failure.
Bob Nuckolls provides a nice circuit proposition for the Rotax
alternator/regulator, with overvoltage protection.
I personnally would and did shun the Rotax circuit proposition.
Also, I would like to point out that the alarm lamp is driven by the
regulator, and so can't be expected to provide any degree of protection.
Some pictures and thermal info here
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
Best regards,
|
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josok-e(at)ukolo.fi Guest
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Gilles,
With all respect to your students work, it's always a good idea to check if the numbers add up. From the top of my head, with (low quality) thyristor junction loss of 0.6 V at 20 A makes for 12 watts to dissipate, not 80 as "actually measured". Add 10 watts for the rest of the components and we are still far from the "actual measured" figure. Common sense also tells me that 80 watts dissipation would make this item scalding hot in minutes. 20 W also is more in line with the Rotax idea of ambient temperature. Where is the mistake?
Regards,
Jos
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk Guest
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Certainly keeping the continuous load to a maximum of about 11amps
helps to avoid exploring the edges of the regulator’s envelope. With
most daylight VFR equipped Europas this should be quite easy to do.
High power lights in particular put the regulator nearer to its
limits.
Although my regulator (like many) is mounted on the footwell, it
receives the outlet of a 2” tube of ram air which is used to cool the
fuel tubing forward of the firewall. I use the NACA duct on the lower
starboard side of the engine cowl. Fuel temperature entering the
carburetor is nearly always around that leaving the fuel tank. The only
exception is after shutdown when the lack of airflow lets the fuel
temperature rise to around 40degC on hot days. For short turnarounds I
leave the inspection panels open as this allows the hot air to escape
more easily. It is important to have some method to avoid forgetting to
close them before departure.
Nigel Charles
--
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nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk Guest
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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My understanding is that the reason the battery should not be
disconnected during engine running is that it is important that the
regulator sees a load. One way to help achieve this is for at least one
significant electrical load to be supplied direct from the regulator
output. Anyone with a dual electrical pump system already does this
with one of the fuel pumps but for those with a mechanical pump another
load could be used.
Nigel Charles
--
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Bryan Allsop
Joined: 29 Jun 2007 Posts: 78
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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The e-mail from Jos makes the following comment:": There is text on the regulator: Do not take the battery off line with a running engine. If you look at the Rotax manual C that is exactly what the main switch or contactor does." Whilst replacing my Ducati I noticed the following instruction discreetly cast between the cooling fins:- "WITH THE MOTOR RUNNING NEVER DETACH BATTERY CABLES". Until that time I was not aware of it. If I had been C it would not have appeared to be a problem. It is a problem though for aircraft like mine C where the ignition switches are independent of the master switch. Retrospectively C I can recall that I have occasionally switched all power before stopping the engine C thus isolating the battery with the engine running. The current general advice seems to be that overheating is not a major problem. If that is the case C it seems more likely that Ducati failures in aircraft can be put down to isolating the battery with the engine running. From now on C my shut down procedure will be "engine before master switch". Bryan
_________________________________________________________________
Get Windows Live and get whatever you need C wherever you are. Start here
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s(at)vestuti.orangehome.c Guest
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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OK, if the standard ducati regulator is just about coping with electriacal
loads, then how is it going to manage with the external 40A alternator option? anyone fitted that alternator?
steve G-CECV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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rlborger(at)mac.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Steve & other Europaphiles,
The external alternator (Nippon-Denso in my case, purchased through Flight Crafters) is an internally regulated device. In my installation (as per instructions) my electrics are powered from either the N-D alternator through its own regulator OR from the Rotax alternator through the Ducati regulator. The Ducati unit is not involved with the N-D alternator. I use a double pole, triple throw switch (on-off-on) for control. Switch down > Rotax alternator; Switch middle > Battery only; Switch up > N-D alternator.
This is a complicated setup and, from Bob N's postings, may not be necessary. Bob has posted that it should be possible to connect both alternators in parallel to the bus. The one with the higher output voltage driving until it can no longer maintain voltage. When the voltage sags, it will drop below the output voltage of the second unit allowing it to come on line. I decided to go ahead and follow the instructions provided but will probably test the parallel set up at some point in the future.
For now this is all theory in my case as my Rotax has yet to be started. Maybe on Sunday, should all deliveries appear on time and I can finish the priming/purging of the oil system.
Good building and great flying,
Bob Borger
On Wednesday, August 06, 2008, at 01:19PM, "steve v" <s(at)vestuti.orangehome.co.uk> wrote:
Quote: |
OK, if the standard ducati regulator is just about coping with electriacal
loads, then how is it going to manage with the external 40A alternator option? anyone fitted that alternator?
steve G-CECV #573
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv Guest
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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But I've NEVER had the engine running without the battery and alternator connected, unless the possibility of aging earth connections is counted as a partial contribution. The regulator hasn't failed yet either, but it's on its way!
For the record, the load demand is normally well below 10amps, maybe more during charging after a start, which actually is noticeable during temperature monitoring; the temperature drops back slightly after about 5 to 10 minutes.
Duncan McF.
[quote] ---
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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno Guest
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Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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josok a �crit :
Quote: |
Gilles,
With all respect to your students work, it's always a good idea to check if the numbers add up. From the top of my head, with (low quality) thyristor junction loss of 0.6 V at 20 A makes for 12 watts to dissipate, not 80 as "actually measured". Add 10 watts for the rest of the components and we are still far from the "actual measured" figure. Common sense also tells me that 80 watts dissipation would make this item scalding hot in minutes. 20 W also is more in line with the Rotax idea of ambient temperature. Where is the mistake?
Josok and all,
|
When I was working on our project some years ago, there was a lot of
hangar tales about the Rotax regulator and wiring. The only hard fact I
could rely upon was that several of my buddies, and some Europa builders
experienced failures, and that the Rotax 914 was electrically dependent.
This is why I started some investigations concerning the unit and
designed some redundancy into the wiring.
Among other things we dicovered :
- The efficiency of the unit is not great, and its thermal
characteristics are poor
- Cooling will definitely improve matters.
- The unit wont start to life unless the c wire senses some voltage, so
there are failure modes where the regulator will stall and stop
supplying current to the ship, rendering the Rotax circuit suggestion
unsuitable for the 914.
- Asking more than 12 amps continuous from the unit seems not reasonable.
The numbers have been actually measured, in a very well known and
reputable electricity lab (LEG and IUT 1 in Grenoble) with professional
equipment.
The numbers you give seem remarkably low, so maybe the unit you measured
is a different model ? Rotax may have modified his regulator, after all...
Of course, everyone is invited to check the numbers and facts, and I
would be glad to publish the results of other experiments to complement
the article.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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josok-e(at)ukolo.fi Guest
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Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Giles,
As usual a long answer, and not very much to the point. it was to be expected. The results you publish were first from investigations by your students, now from a professional laboratory. Students working in a professional laboratory, and publishing numbers without proper checking?
The numbers do not add up. 80 watts loss seems to be impossible, both from what's put in and from what comes out. 80 watts on such a small unit can never be dissipated. Not even when adding a small fan Nobody can really expect that -59 a ambient temperature is a reasonable figure either. In short: These are the numbers you published and they can not be true, they do not even come close. Did somebody put a comma in the wrong place?
The general picture from what others about cooling and load of the unit, the poor reliability of the unit is not heat related. It's just a poor quality item. IMHO no use to find cooler spots or start adding fans with their own reliability and fire-hazard problems.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
Visit - www.EuropaOwners.org
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jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl Guest
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Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Ducatti Rectifier/Regulator |
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Jos,
While 80W seems excessive conduction by a silicon diode and thyristor in
series could easily drop 2.5V making for 50W at 20A?
Cheers,
Jan de Jong
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