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Kitfox handling problems

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morid(at)northland.lib.mi
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

I agree with Bradley.  Basically, IMO the Kitfox is a very docile handling

airplane.  I was a total tail dragger novice when I built and flew my Model

2 many years ago.  I made the first flight and had few problems landing or

taking off with it.  Crosswinds were no problem (within reason) and taxi was

a non event that quickly became second nature.  I think the occasionaly gear

geometry misalignment causes more problems for people than anything else.

Makes 'em squirrely.

After that I built, and am still flying, a S5 that is just as docile.

Speaking on that, the S5, although bigger and heavier, will get in and out

of the same tight spots that the Model 2 did.

Anyway, my point is that I don't agree that the Kitfox is a handful.  If

anyone is having problems with unpredictability make sure you check your

gear alignment first thing, because there's a good chance that it may be

contributing to your problems.  My opinion is that with the airplane in

level attitude, the gear should be nutral to slightly toed out.  Toe in just

exacerbates swerves.

Deke

NE Michigan



---

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:12 am Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

Interesting. Mine is toed in, and I can see the logic in toe-out. I don't

know how hard it is to change. I imagine lots of bending, grunting, and

cursing.



I'm also curious as to why the spring gear is easier handling than the

bungee set. I've considered the benefits of the spring set, but mine is ok

as-is, so I'm hesitant to ruin a good thing.



Maybe we're all just different flyers who experience the same thing, with

different views.



As an instructor, I do teach rudder usage, as John had said. It can be a

very useful tool, even in a 172. But it's nothing like the 'fox! That'll

teach you rudder in ways a Cessna never dreamed of!



I'll tell you, if there are TD's that are easier than the Kfox, I'd sure

like to experience that.



Bradley



--

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:40 am Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

On Mar 9, 2006, at 4:14 AM, Fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I agree with Bradley.  Basically, IMO the Kitfox is a very docile 

 handling

 airplane.


	


So do I. But then, the Kitfox is the only aircraft I ever flew! Lots of 

people told me it was not a beginner's plane and it took me a while to 

learn it but, once done, I wouldn't fly anything else. One need to be 

awake and swift when landing but ... isn't that all the fun of flying? 

If I want to fly easy ... I sit in an airliner! 



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

Bradley,

I am a strong advocate of  toe out (slight) if perfectly parallel can't be 

achieved.  I am curious as to the degree of toe in you have?



Lowell

---

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

I don't have a number, but I can get one. It is noticeable. Maybe when my

fat butt is in there, it toes-out. I would think the geometry wouldn't

change, but I've not thought about it.



I haven't had to remove the wheels yet, so I'm not sure how to check the

angle, save a lot of work with alignment tools. Any ideas?



Toe out makes sense, as when loading the outside wheel, it would track away

from centerline, bringing the load to the other wheel; self-centering, so to

speak.



But I've had no problems as of yet the way it is.

Bradley



--

rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

Bradley,

If you have a laser level with a magnetic base, simply stick it to the disc

brake disc and make a mark on the floor close to the wheel and another mark

about 20 feet away.  Repeat on the other side and compare the distance

between the marks close to your tire and 20 feet away.   A little trig and

you can covert to degrees of toe in or out.



Randy - another believer that the only bad alignment is Toe-in!



 



.           

--

Malcolmbru(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

I have a KF2 and haven't flown it yet.  I have almost 500 HR in two  kolbs.  

I have flown a cgs hawk and a Golden Circle T. Bird  all tail  draggers  but 

non have what I would call having a tendency to ground  loop.  I saw a guy turn 

off an asphalt runway so hard and abrupt he blew  the tire on a kolb and it 

just kept turning fine.  I put 11-22 tires w/ 8  in rims on the kit fox and  am 

a little worried about bouncing on landing.  I herd  3 point is the best. I 

often landed the kolb tail wheel first.  Really dragging it in.  

    An old cub pilot told me to make sure you shake the  plane from side to 

side to take the  load off the gear as a post flight  inspection this helps 

save the bungies  and sometimes you can see it go  from toe out to toe in.

spaghettiohead(at)hotmail
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

Haven't heard that shaking the plane thing...sounds like some good advice 

though?



Far as the landings go, my .02:



On grass or other soft surface, three-point her down.



On the asphalt, ESPECIALLY in a x-wind, make a wheelie - you have more 

control authority because of the higher-speed, and you have much better 

over-the-nose visibility, giving you a better idea of where your tail wants 

to swing...Just be very sure to hold that tail off as long as possible. If 

you prematurely lower the tail in a x-wind, the upwind wing WILL come up on 

you!



Good luck!



Andrew

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Malcolmbru(at)aol.com

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kitfox handling problems

Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 22:14:08 EST






I have a KF2 and haven't flown it yet.  I have almost 500 HR in two  kolbs.

I have flown a cgs hawk and a Golden Circle T. Bird  all tail  draggers  

but

non have what I would call having a tendency to ground  loop.  I saw a guy 

turn

off an asphalt runway so hard and abrupt he blew  the tire on a kolb and it

just kept turning fine.  I put 11-22 tires w/ 8  in rims on the kit fox and 

  am

a little worried about bouncing on landing.  I herd  3 point is the best. I

often landed the kolb tail wheel first.  Really dragging it in.

     An old cub pilot told me to make sure you shake the  plane from side 

to

side to take the  load off the gear as a post flight  inspection this helps

save the bungies  and sometimes you can see it go  from toe out to toe in.

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:56 am Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

As far as the bouncing goes, keep the tire pressure very low on large tires.

Mine has about 4-5 psi, and it has no tendency to bounce, unless I miss the

3 point attitude, and the tail drops at touchdown. My tires are ATV knobbys,

if that makes a difference.



I don't think I've yet hit the tail wheel first.



An interesting thing about my 2: With flaps deployed, it really steepens the

approach angel. It is much more noticeable than the Cessna's. but in the

flare, I don't have enough elevator authority to do a 3-point landing. I'm

thinking of getting gap seals to help it.



Bradley



--

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

Bradley,

   

  I have gap seals on my Model 2 and it still lacks elevator authority at "stall" speed. There's really no such thing as a flare or "full stall" landing in my 2. Not at all like I was used to in Cessnas or even Cubs. It's more like a "full mush" landing. This resulted in alot of spectacular bounces at first until someone on the list suggested carring more speed into touchdown. Now,  if I touch down at 45 or so ( indicated) there's no bounce at all. Haven't tried using flaps to increase glide angle, slips seem to work pretty good for that. I though the flaps on Models 1-3 were more for trim than anything else.

   

  Puzzling out the envelope is part of the fun isn't it?



Bradley M Webb <bmwebb(at)cox.net> wrote:

  



As far as the bouncing goes, keep the tire pressure very low on large tires.

Mine has about 4-5 psi, and it has no tendency to bounce, unless I miss the

3 point attitude, and the tail drops at touchdown. My tires are ATV knobbys,

if that makes a difference.



I don't think I've yet hit the tail wheel first.



An interesting thing about my 2: With flaps deployed, it really steepens the

approach angel. It is much more noticeable than the Cessna's. but in the

flare, I don't have enough elevator authority to do a 3-point landing. I'm

thinking of getting gap seals to help it.



Bradley



--

Aerobatics(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:24:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,  

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com writes:



Bradley,



I have gap seals on my Model 2 and  it still lacks elevator authority at 

"stall" speed. There's really no such  thing as a flare or "full stall" landing in 

my 2. Not at all like I was used  to in Cessnas or even Cubs. It's more like 

a "full mush" landing. This  resulted in alot of spectacular bounces at first 

until someone on the list  suggested carring more speed into touchdown. Now,  

if I touch down at 45  or so ( indicated) there's no bounce at all. Haven't 

tried using flaps to  increase glide angle, slips seem to work pretty good for 

that. I though the  flaps on Models 1-3 were more for trim than anything  else.



Hi  I have a 2 as well, sealing the gaps made a huge difference for  me.  You 

might want to check your CG.  Like you I ran out of elevator  on flare.... I 

believe empty my CG  is at 27% MAC.  you may be just a  tad nose heavy

Best,

Dave Patrick KF2

rliebmann(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

Hi Marco,



It was easy for me to retrofit a Model 4 Speedster elevator to my Model 2. 

It made a big difference in landing slowly.  The elevator came with the trim 

tab cut-out already welded in place. I have an electric evevator trim system 

that works great.



Ron   Model 2/582   N55KF



DO NOT ARCHIVE

---

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

Hi Dave,

   

  You might be right. My empty CG is 10.65, within the range  (10.2-14.2 but admittedly toward the front end of it. How does that translate into MAC? In the Ed Downs book, he describes the stall characteristics of a model 2 exactly like how mine acts. I thought it was fairly typical for the design so have left well enough alone.

  



Aerobatics(at)aol.com wrote:

  

In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:24:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, 

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com writes:



Bradley,



I have gap seals on my Model 2 and it still lacks elevator authority at 

"stall" speed. There's really no such thing as a flare or "full stall" landing in 

my 2. Not at all like I was used to in Cessnas or even Cubs. It's more like 

a "full mush" landing. This resulted in alot of spectacular bounces at first 

until someone on the list suggested carring more speed into touchdown. Now, 

if I touch down at 45 or so ( indicated) there's no bounce at all. Haven't 

tried using flaps to increase glide angle, slips seem to work pretty good for 

that. I though the flaps on Models 1-3 were more for trim than anything else.



Hi I have a 2 as well, sealing the gaps made a huge difference for me. You 

might want to check your CG. Like you I ran out of elevator on flare.... I 

believe empty my CG is at 27% MAC. you may be just a tad nose heavy

Best,

Dave Patrick KF2 





Marco Menezes

Model 2 582 N99KX

		

---------------------------------

Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze.

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

That was one of my first thought': bigger elevator (and bigger rudder too). I imagine this is an exercise in futility but if anyone has a Model 4 elevator out there they'd like to part with . . .? Barring that I'd settle for some scale drawings. 

   

  Thanks Ron.

   

  do not archive



Ron Liebmann <rliebmann(at)comcast.net> wrote:

  



Hi Marco,



It was easy for me to retrofit a Model 4 Speedster elevator to my Model 2. 

It made a big difference in landing slowly. The elevator came with the trim 

tab cut-out already welded in place. I have an electric evevator trim system 

that works great.



Ron Model 2/582 N55KF



DO NOT ARCHIVE

---

jamesrfrost(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

Where could I get these gap seals?  I have a 3 that runs out of elevator 

too.  Should I take some weight out of the nose?  On the engine mount there 

is this 1.5" pipe with lead shot inside I believe.



Randy of Gainesville, Ga

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Aerobatics(at)aol.com

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kitfox handling problems

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:50:20 EST




In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:24:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com writes:



Bradley,



I have gap seals on my Model 2 and  it still lacks elevator authority at

"stall" speed. There's really no such  thing as a flare or "full stall" 

landing in

my 2. Not at all like I was used  to in Cessnas or even Cubs. It's more 

like

a "full mush" landing. This  resulted in alot of spectacular bounces at 

first

until someone on the list  suggested carring more speed into touchdown. 

Now,

if I touch down at 45  or so ( indicated) there's no bounce at all. Haven't

tried using flaps to  increase glide angle, slips seem to work pretty good 

for

that. I though the  flaps on Models 1-3 were more for trim than anything  

else.



Hi  I have a 2 as well, sealing the gaps made a huge difference for  me.  

You

might want to check your CG.  Like you I ran out of elevator  on flare.... 

I

believe empty my CG  is at 27% MAC.  you may be just a  tad nose heavy

Best,

Dave Patrick KF2

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:22 am Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

Randy,

   

  There are alot of different products that are suitable for gap seals. Check the archives for many discussions on this topic. I used Frost King weather sealing tape available at most any hardware store up here where it's cold. Comes clear in 2" width. I cut two strips to length overlapped them by an inch so there's one sticky side up, one down and applied in "S" configuration. It's cheap and easy.

   

  I put mine on from the get-go on lists recommendation, so I don't know how my mod 2 would perform without them. Presumably, worse.



RaNDY Frost <jamesrfrost(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

  



Where could I get these gap seals? I have a 3 that runs out of elevator 

too. Should I take some weight out of the nose? On the engine mount there 

is this 1.5" pipe with lead shot inside I believe.



Randy of Gainesville, Ga

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Aerobatics(at)aol.com

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kitfox handling problems

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:50:20 EST




In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:24:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com writes:



Bradley,



I have gap seals on my Model 2 and it still lacks elevator authority at

"stall" speed. There's really no such thing as a flare or "full stall" 

landing in

my 2. Not at all like I was used to in Cessnas or even Cubs. It's more 

like

a "full mush" landing. This resulted in alot of spectacular bounces at 

first

until someone on the list suggested carring more speed into touchdown. 

Now,

if I touch down at 45 or so ( indicated) there's no bounce at all. Haven't

tried using flaps to increase glide angle, slips seem to work pretty good 

for

that. I though the flaps on Models 1-3 were more for trim than anything 

else.



Hi I have a 2 as well, sealing the gaps made a huge difference for me. 

You

might want to check your CG. Like you I ran out of elevator on flare.... 

I

believe empty my CG is at 27% MAC. you may be just a tad nose heavy

Best,

Dave Patrick KF2








	






Marco Menezes

Model 2 582 N99KX

bmwebb(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:42 am Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

Great ideas. Especially nice to know that many of us have the same issues,

and we all can improve the planes.



I have to agree with all that's been said on this topic. It's well known

that an aft CG will make the elevator sensitive, and a forward CG makes it

mushy. I may go ahead and put my battery in the tail.



I read a study somewhere a long time ago that even a small gap in a control

surface not designed to have one, will reduce the surface effectiveness by

as much as 30%. It also pointed out that gaps did not contribute appreciably

to flutter issues (this was the point of the test, to find flutter causes),

but did greatly increase the authority of the control.



Bradley



--

eccles(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: Kitfox handling problems

on the model V if the aircraft is nose heavy you will run out of elevator

with the flaps on in which case i would get the CG more in the center of the

envelope. I'm not sure on the earlier models as i know you trim with the

flaps

Steve

0-200

series V



--

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