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Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

Was talking to another RV-10 pilot at OSH just before I left and

he told me he peeked at some of the RV-10's that flew in and looked

for asymmetrical trim tab deployment.  As we've discussed in

the past, the tabs should be both neutral at the same time, but

when they go up, only one goes up (the other does move up a

tiny amount), and when they go down, they both should go down.

You should never have a situation where one goes up and one

goes down.



Having only one tab move up may sound crazy, but that's how

it's supposed to work, and keep in mind that this isn't

strange at all....many planes and even the other RV's

are built with only one trim tab on one side.  But, what makes

our case unique is that if the builder screws up the rigging,

they can end up with the 2 tabs in opposite deflections.....and

if you follow the plans, you will likely have a small misalignment.



These observations were not made by me, but were brought

to my attention:

So what was observed was that N921AC has some asymmetrical trim,

then another unpainted RV-10 had a worse condition of

asymmetrical trim.  But the one that took the prize was one

of the build-for-customer RV-10's that was at the show....

from what I was told, that RV-10 had one trim tab that was

approx. 10 degrees up, while the other tab was approx. 10 deg

down.  NOW, the interesting thing was, the person also

noticed that it appeared that this particular RV-10 may

have had a little compression deformity of that rear

bulkhead noted in the SB.



Perhaps next year at OSH we should have a gathering to

specifically look at some noted areas of every RV-10

and self-group-check for any potential safety issues?

This year I just looked at all the pretty planes.

Pretty good turnout overall.



-- 

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

Did anyone get the tail number of the unpainter 10 with the compression marks near the bulkhead so that the owner could be informed of what was happening in case they are not aware of it on their own or not on this list?

  

 John G. 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Mon C 4 Aug 2008 08:34:22 -0500

 From: Tim(at)MyRV10.com

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com>

 

 Was talking to another RV-10 pilot at OSH just before I left and

 he told me he peeked at some of the RV-10's that flew in and looked

 for asymmetrical trim tab deployment. As we've discussed in

 the past C the tabs should be both neutral at the same time C but

 when they go up C only one goes up (the other does move up a

 tiny amount) C and when they go down C they both should go down.

 You should never have a situation where one goes up and one

 goes down.

 

 Having only one tab move up may sound crazy C but that's how

 it's supposed to work C and keep in mind that this isn't

 strange at all....many planes and even the other RV's

 are built with only one trim tab on one side. But C what makes

 our case unique is that if the builder screws up the rigging C

 they can end up with the 2 tabs in opposite deflections.....and

 if you follow the plans C you will likely have a small misalignment.

 

 These observations were not made by me C but were brought

 to my attention:

 So what was observed was that N921AC has some asymmetrical trim C

 then another unpainted RV-10 had a worse condition of

 asymmetrical trim. But the one that took the prize was one

 of the build-for-customer RV-10's that was at the show....

 from what I was told C that RV-10 had one trim tab that was

 approx. 10 degrees up C while the other tab was approx. 10 deg

 down. NOW C the interesting thing was C the person also

 noticed that it appeared that this particular RV-10 may

 have had a little compression deformity of that rear

 bulkhead noted in the SB.

 

 Perhaps next year at OSH we should have a gathering to

 specifically look at some noted areas of every RV-10

 and self-group-check for any potential safety issues?

 This year I just looked at all the pretty planes.

 Pretty good turnout overall.

 

 -- 

 Tim Olson - RV-1 Archive Search & Download C 7-Day Browse C Chat C FAQ C

&gt=====================
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   _=====

 

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

I second the comment of a pretty good turn-out and a good group of

product representation entries.



Kelly would be a good candidate as one of those potential observers.

Each plane should be able to OPT out of the review if desired.  As an

EAA Tech, I would be happy to assist the team.



Keeping rates low is a result of frequent Pilot Proficiency and regular

maintenance.  Knowing what to look for, how to correct it and pending

issues beginning to arise saves everyone a lot of money and a loss of

friends.  By Opting out we can avoid some of the non-productive

criticism that does not advance safety "One Iota".  I spent this year

getting training on becoming a Warbird Judge and how the scoring system

works at OSH.



The plastic plane crowd has publically conceded that the pursuit of

million dollar kits has given the bulk of the market to VANS and the

RV-10 is becoming the pre-eminent X-Cntry cruiser.



John Cox

Do not Archive



--

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

John Cox wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I second the comment of a pretty good turn-out and a good group of

 product representation entries.



 Kelly would be a good candidate as one of those potential observers.

 Each plane should be able to OPT out of the review if desired.

Why (and how) would they do that???  Kinda defeats the purpose of 
	


increasing your knowledge (I didn't know that!!!  ) and everyone is 

going to see the same thing anyway.  This group isn't full of sharks 

waiting for the chance to bite a head off, and if the 'anomaly' is so 

bad ..... shouldn't the owner be informed????

 	  Quote: 	
		     As an EAA Tech, I would be happy to assist the team.



 Keeping rates low is a result of frequent Pilot Proficiency and regular

 maintenance.  Knowing what to look for, how to correct it and pending

 issues beginning to arise saves everyone a lot of money and a loss of

 friends.  By Opting out we can avoid some of the non-productive

 criticism that does not advance safety "One Iota".  I spent this year

 getting training on becoming a Warbird Judge and how the scoring system

 works at OSH.

   

We'll always get some flames here and there ...... but as a group 
	


function I don't think that'll happen.  The information could be 

presented on a written sheet rather than having a public hanging.

 	  Quote: 	
		   The plastic plane crowd has publically conceded that the pursuit of

 million dollar kits has given the bulk of the market to VANS and the

 RV-10 is becoming the pre-eminent X-Cntry cruiser.

   

As it should be.  My favorite is the Grumman line ..... and the RV-10 is 
	


everything the Grumman AA-5s want to be.  Plus, we can customize our 

birds and they can't!!! 



Our Grumman Gang is a great group to get info from (for the Grummans), 

and the experience level is high ..... hence the info is excellent.  We 

still have some biting emails, but if there are sensitive owners out 

there, they just consider the source and move on.



The more we take care of our brethren, the better we get as a group, and 

that will result in better insurance rates and may even result in some 

flight cost savings.  I don't mind taking flak .... builders are an 

opinionated lot ..... but I'd hate to miss that little nugget of info 

that helps me out.

Linn .... my opinion

do not archive

[quote] John Cox

 Do not Archive



 --

Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

One of the reasons I brought the plane to OSH was to get some feedback.

Like anyone, I wish my plane was perfect, although I think we all benefit. I

did get a note left for me about the trim tabs, and I appreciate it.  I'll

look at them again.



I had lots of time on the way home to observe the elevators in cruise.  They

were as close to even left to right as I could judge.



I worked quite a bit to get the tabs to be both up or both down.  The best I

could get was as Tim described--one just starting up, then down as the other

moved from up to down.  What would be really helpful for me is to know how

much the"up then down" tab should deflect "opposite" when it does so.  I

recall mine goes about 1/8" before it starts down again, but I'm not at the

plane.  I'll check again.



Thanks for the comments.



Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 

831-722-9141

831-750-0284 CL

www.AirCraftersLLC.com



N921AC  202 hours, just back from OSH



--

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

Dave,



One thing that amazed me was the heat coming off your wing from the sun...it hits you in the face and it VERY hot. Oh, you may want to look at the left aft window...looked kinda wavey  



Rick Sked

40185



---

Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

Yeah, that happened a few weeks ago.  With the flaps up it's twice as bad,

so we park with the flaps down now.



Dave



Do Not Archive 



--

nukeflyboy

Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 162
Location: Granbury, TX

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

I just finished putting the rudder cables in mine so this caught my eye.  One of the 10s at OSH had its rudder cable aft plastic tubes (that protect the skin and rear bulkhead) pushed too far forward.  The cable will start sawing the skin.  I never saw the owner, and some guys don't appreciate the feedback.  For me, you can never have too many eyes on a project.  It is cheap insurance and good QC.

_________________
Dave Moore
RV-6 built and sold
RV-10 built and flying

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

Dave,

Just to reiterate.....I personally didn't see your trim tabs.

I was passing along someone else's observation that they thought

should be talked about...the guy that left the note.  So I

can't claim to know there is in fact a problem.  If they're

even in cruise, and you get them both at neutral together

and they move up together and down together, I'm betting you're

fine.  You're right, that one tab does move up a small amount

and then down, as the right tab continues up.  But as long as

it's not going negative, I doubt it's an issue.  It maybe

moves 1/8 or 3/16" I'm guessing.  I'd have to look in person

and measure to know for sure.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Dave Saylor wrote:

[quote] 

 

 One of the reasons I brought the plane to OSH was to get some feedback.

 Like anyone, I wish my plane was perfect, although I think we all benefit. I

 did get a note left for me about the trim tabs, and I appreciate it.  I'll

 look at them again.

 

 I had lots of time on the way home to observe the elevators in cruise.  They

 were as close to even left to right as I could judge.

 

 I worked quite a bit to get the tabs to be both up or both down.  The best I

 could get was as Tim described--one just starting up, then down as the other

 moved from up to down.  What would be really helpful for me is to know how

 much the"up then down" tab should deflect "opposite" when it does so.  I

 recall mine goes about 1/8" before it starts down again, but I'm not at the

 plane.  I'll check again.

 

 Thanks for the comments.

 

 Dave Saylor

 AirCrafters LLC

 140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 

 831-722-9141

 831-750-0284 CL

 www.AirCraftersLLC.com

 

 N921AC  202 hours, just back from OSH

 

 --

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

Dave,



Ouch....that sucks about the rudder cables.

You know, the worst thing I think I saw at OSH was when

that first-flying unpainted one showed up what....3 years

ago?  A whole bundle of wires was routed down

into the tunnel where the brake lines come up through the

notched cutout in the tunnel cover.  That whole bundle

of wires was laying against the cutout edge of that notch

in the cover....and over time it was definitely going to

cut into some of those wires.  I cringed when I saw it.

They had no grommet or protector on that cutout at all.

I always wondered how long that one would last.  Not sure

what happened to it after it had the hard landing that

crunched it pretty good from what I heard.



But yeah, if it were me, I'd be thrilled to get someone pointing

out safety issues with my plane.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

nukeflyboy wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I just finished putting the rudder cables in mine so this caught my

 eye.  One of the 10s at OSH had its rudder cable aft plastic tubes

 (that protect the skin and rear bulkhead) pushed too far forward.

 The cable will start sawing the skin.  I never saw the owner, and

 some guys don't appreciate the feedback.  For me, you can never have

 too many eyes on a project.  It is cheap insurance and good QC.

Geico266

Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 18

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

Excellent thread Tim!



 I too noticed several trims that could have been better, including mine as it turns out.  I had a great conversation with several builders at the -10 camp. I really learned alot and I look forward to learning more.

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

Does anyone know which plane was used for spin testing of the RV-10?  

I would not be surprised if it was the green and white one and that is where the cracks originated from.  



The loading that a couple of rotations in a spin could be an issue though.  

I was just curious.  With only one plane with the issue makes me wonder what type of loading that plane has seen that no one else has seen.  

 

Scott Schmidtscottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com



---

bcondrey

Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

It was N410RV (the yellow one).  You can still see the mount points for the spin chute on the tailcone.  

   

Bob  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

 Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:07 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH  

  

     

Does anyone know which plane was used for spin testing of the RV-10?  

 I would not be surprised if it was the green and white one and that is where the cracks originated from.  

 

 The loading that a couple of rotations in a spin could be an issue though.  

 I was just curious.  With only one plane with the issue makes me wonder what type of loading that plane has seen that no one else has seen.      

   

  

Scott Schmidt

 scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com    

   

    

     

---

Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

I reviewed my tab positions and found the worst case to be when the right

tab had gone below neutral about 1/8".  At that point the left tab had gone

slightly back up to about 1/8" above neutral.



Now I get to use the caveat of the day:  I took airloads into account,

meaning I pushed each tab with some moderate pressure back towards neutral,

as air would do in flight.  Before removing the slack, I was measuring maybe

a hair over 3/16".



So, I rigged my right tab to be neutral when the left had returned up a to

its highest point, so now there is never any opposite deflection.  They are

always either both up or both down, or one is neutral.  That took about

three turns out on the right clevis end.



At that point, something Tim wrote made perfect sense:  Most planes only

have one trim tab.  Doesn't that impart a twist?  The fact that one is up

and one is down isn't necessarily a bad thing--I guess it's a matter of

degree.  At some point I'm going to impart the same twisting force, but it

will be from a single tab that's deflected further.



Well, either way, I'm pretty sure mine is OK.  As noted earlier, the

elevators are evenly deflected in cruise.



Now on to the doors.



Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 

831-722-9141

831-750-0284 CL

www.AirCraftersLLC.com



N921AC



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

Awesome! Glad that worked out well for you.  Not sure who'll

remember my initial write-up on this, but you have my same take on

it I think.  It was Bill DeRouchey who initially brought this matter

to attention when he saw his elevator horns going one-up-one-down.

I really didn't have much concern or believe him at the time he

first brought it up.  But, after checking mine out, mine was only

very slightly off, as your was.  Certainly it flew fine and it wasn't

something that would take one elevator horn and go opposite that

I'd notice.  So when I did my write-up I mentioned that I think this

is all something that can happen to various degrees for different

builders.  Everything from the individualistic construction of

the parts, to slight drilling differences in the horn placements,

and even elevator bellcrank placements.  So I said that it was

a good thing to check, and correct to as good as you can get...but

not that it necessarily was going to be a big problem for everyone.

The sad part is, if you rig it for max 35 degree deflection as the

plans call for, then you're LIKELY to have it be off by a small

amount at best.  Shooting for 32 degrees helps a lot.



So like I said, I didn't see yours personally, but it's great to

be able to share some info that gets people to at least check it

closely and think about it.  Then they can get theirs to where

there is no way the asymmetry can be a big issue.  Mine were

never bad enough to make the elevator horns go opposite...neither

were yours, and the very slight opposing forces were probably no

big deal.  But, I am guessing that trim tabs kind of have their

effect exponentially or logarithmically...so I can see where if

someone has a few varied errors in their construction or alignment

that it could be a whole different story for them.  And while

a single-trim-tab design won't likely cause your stuff to twist,

as it's still moving hard-joined elevators....if you have 2 tabs

and they go opposite, that can really put some forces on the

connection of elevators.



Glad you checked it out and found it to be minor and corrected

it!



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Dave Saylor wrote:

[quote] 

 

 I reviewed my tab positions and found the worst case to be when the right

 tab had gone below neutral about 1/8".  At that point the left tab had gone

 slightly back up to about 1/8" above neutral.

 

 Now I get to use the caveat of the day:  I took airloads into account,

 meaning I pushed each tab with some moderate pressure back towards neutral,

 as air would do in flight.  Before removing the slack, I was measuring maybe

 a hair over 3/16".

 

 So, I rigged my right tab to be neutral when the left had returned up a to

 its highest point, so now there is never any opposite deflection.  They are

 always either both up or both down, or one is neutral.  That took about

 three turns out on the right clevis end.

 

 At that point, something Tim wrote made perfect sense:  Most planes only

 have one trim tab.  Doesn't that impart a twist?  The fact that one is up

 and one is down isn't necessarily a bad thing--I guess it's a matter of

 degree.  At some point I'm going to impart the same twisting force, but it

 will be from a single tab that's deflected further.

 

 Well, either way, I'm pretty sure mine is OK.  As noted earlier, the

 elevators are evenly deflected in cruise.

 

 Now on to the doors.

 

 Dave Saylor

 AirCrafters LLC

 140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 

 831-722-9141

 831-750-0284 CL

 www.AirCraftersLLC.com

 

 N921AC

 

 

 

 --

Geico266

Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 18

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

This may be old news, but worth repeating on this thread. I as I understand it the -10 trim tabs were originally designed to be partially actuated with flap deployment. That system did not work out during testing and construction so it was modified to the current configuration. 



 Seems to me both trim tabs should be equal all of the time as to not twist the tail. I'm no engineer, just my $.02 worth. Maybe this is something that caused the tail bulkhead SB?

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

I remember this being brought up before.  Seems odd that they would try and do this mechanically rather than electronically with something like Aircraft Extra's Flap Positioning system that has the ability to adjust trim.  BTW, if anyone is thinking about getting that, don't get it from Van's as it seems they really jacked up the price.  Just get it from AE.



http://www.aircraftextras.com/



Michael



--

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

Tim,

You've brought up something I've been meaning to ask. My brake lines touch the notch (I'm not a very good tube bender). I've been planning on enlarging the notch before I close it up. Anything else I should know or avoid?

John

 	  Tim Olson wrote: 	
		  Dave,



Ouch....that sucks about the rudder cables.

You know, the worst thing I think I saw at OSH was when

that first-flying unpainted one showed up what....3 years

ago?  A whole bundle of wires was routed down

into the tunnel where the brake lines come up through the

notched cutout in the tunnel cover.  That whole bundle

of wires was laying against the cutout edge of that notch

in the cover....and over time it was definitely going to

cut into some of those wires.  I cringed when I saw it.

They had no grommet or protector on that cutout at all.

I always wondered how long that one would last.  Not sure

what happened to it after it had the hard landing that

crunched it pretty good from what I heard.



But yeah, if it were me, I'd be thrilled to get someone pointing

out safety issues with my plane.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

nukeflyboy wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I just finished putting the rudder cables in mine so this caught my

 eye.  One of the 10s at OSH had its rudder cable aft plastic tubes

 (that protect the skin and rear bulkhead) pushed too far forward.

 The cable will start sawing the skin.  I never saw the owner, and

 some guys don't appreciate the feedback.  For me, you can never have

 too many eyes on a project.  It is cheap insurance and good QC.

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: Asymmetrical trim noted at OSH

Well, If you need to enlarge it, then great, but you'll

still want to find some grommet material to put on the

edge anywhere near where hoses and wires could touch.

Additionally, with solid lines, you need to make sure

things are not overly rigid.  In some applications, like

high pressure air lines, you actually put a service

loop as a strain relieve in the air hose, so that there

is plenty of flex available.  That's my main concern

with some of the lines that we have to run with the

kit.  If it can flex over a large area, great, but

you don't want any tubing wiggling all in one focused

area....solid tubing, I mean.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

johngoodman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Tim,

 You've brought up something I've been meaning to ask. My brake lines touch the notch (I'm not a very good tube bender). I've been planning on enlarging the notch before I close it up. Anything else I should know or avoid?

 John

 

 

 

 Tim Olson wrote:

> Dave,

>

> Ouch....that sucks about the rudder cables.

> You know, the worst thing I think I saw at OSH was when

> that first-flying unpainted one showed up what....3 years

> ago?  A whole bundle of wires was routed down

> into the tunnel where the brake lines come up through the

> notched cutout in the tunnel cover.  That whole bundle

> of wires was laying against the cutout edge of that notch

> in the cover....and over time it was definitely going to

> cut into some of those wires.  I cringed when I saw it.

> They had no grommet or protector on that cutout at all.

> I always wondered how long that one would last.  Not sure

> what happened to it after it had the hard landing that

> crunched it pretty good from what I heard.

>

> But yeah, if it were me, I'd be thrilled to get someone pointing

> out safety issues with my plane.

>

> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

> do not archive

> nukeflyboy wrote:

>

>>  

>>  

>>  I just finished putting the rudder cables in mine so this caught my

>>  eye.  One of the 10s at OSH had its rudder cable aft plastic tubes

>>  (that protect the skin and rear bulkhead) pushed too far forward.

>>  The cable will start sawing the skin.  I never saw the owner, and

>>  some guys don't appreciate the feedback.  For me, you can never have

>>  too many eyes on a project.  It is cheap insurance and good QC.

>>  

>>

>>

 

 

 --------

 #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished

 N711JG reserved

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197179#197179

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