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TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: Spins

In a message dated 8/5/2008 3:01:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Secondly - Stall and spin accidents on approach. Low down and in    the 

pattern, these are often fatal. 	
  

 Hi John and All,

  

 Adding to John's excellent commentary, over the years while I was  operating a glider tow club I took dozens and dozens of folks for  glider rides. Many of these folks were power only pilots and had never been  in a glider before. 

  

 Personally, I like doing spins in gliders. Spins are a great  way to get down at the end of the day in a glider. Very often when doing  rides I would spin down if I had another pilot on board. Of course, I  always ask if they want to do a spin before I "show them their toes."

  

 One of the things I've noticed when I've done spins with power only pilots,  and it's been almost universal, is power only pilots, unless they have military  training, seem to genuinely fear spins. I can see this fear from  the back seat when the pilot/passenger tightly grips hand holds in the  cockpit, or if they get really quiet just as you enter the spin. This is  not a good thing because if you fear something it usually means that you don't  understand it. 

  

 I believe the root of this fear is because spins,  generally speaking, are not taught in power planes and most pilots  rarely, if ever, practice spins. Student pilots are told what a spin  is, how to recover, then are usually told to avoid  them. Stall/spin recovery is taught in gliders, though. Spin training is  also available in power planes.

  

 I would suggest that anyone who is uncertain of, or anyone who has genuine  fear of spins, go take spin training and rid yourself of that fear. Most glider  schools offer spin training and most aerobatic flight instructors  also offer spin training. There are many bad habits pilots have in regard  to spins, particularly in terms of spin recovery. These bad habits, like trying  to stop the spin by applying opposite aileron, will make a bad situation  much worse when close to the ground. Pilots can avoid these bad  habits with the proper spin training. Everyone should learn the  correct spin entry and recovery techniques so  well that they become second nature. It's just an added arrow in  your quiver of piloting skills and a skill that might one  day save your life.

  

 Much like aerobatics, spins shouldn't be feared, unless, of  course, you are too close to the ground to recover. Like aerobatics and  unusual attitude recovery training, proper spin training will assist you in  not ever putting yourself into a position where a spin will kill you.

  

 That's my 2 cents.

  

 Regards,

  

 John  Lawton

Whitwell, TN (TN89)

N245E -  Flying



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  [quote][b]

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wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: Spins

I would thoroughly concur.  I did an “unusual attitudes” course in St Augustine in an extra 300 and would thoroughly recommend it.  great fun and huge confidence builder.  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com

 Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 07:46

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Spins  

In a message dated 8/5/2008 3:01:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:  

   	  Quote: 	

Secondly - Stall and spin accidents on approach. Low down and in the 

 [i]pattern, these are often fatal.[/i]  	

Hi John and All,  

Adding to John's excellent commentary, over the years while I was operating a glider tow club I took dozens and dozens of folks for glider rides. Many of these folks were power only pilots and had never been in a glider before.   

Personally, I like doing spins in gliders. Spins are a great way to get down at the end of the day in a glider. Very often when doing rides I would spin down if I had another pilot on board. Of course, I always ask if they want to do a spin before I "show them their toes."  

One of the things I've noticed when I've done spins with power only pilots, and it's been almost universal, is power only pilots, unless they have military training, seem to genuinely fear spins. I can see this fear from the back seat when the pilot/passenger tightly grips hand holds in the cockpit, or if they get really quiet just as you enter the spin. This is not a good thing because if you fear something it usually means that you don't understand it.   

I believe the root of this fear is because spins, generally speaking, are not taught in power planes and most pilots rarely, if ever, practice spins. Student pilots are told what a spin is, how to recover, then are usually told to avoid them. Stall/spin recovery is taught in gliders, though. Spin training is also available in power planes.  

I would suggest that anyone who is uncertain of, or anyone who has genuine fear of spins, go take spin training and rid yourself of that fear. Most glider schools offer spin training and most aerobatic flight instructors also offer spin training. There are many bad habits pilots have in regard to spins, particularly in terms of spin recovery. These bad habits, like trying to stop the spin by applying opposite aileron, will make a bad situation much worse when close to the ground. Pilots can avoid these bad habits with the proper spin training. Everyone should learn the correct spin entry and recovery techniques so well that they become second nature. It's just an added arrow in your quiver of piloting skills and a skill that might one day save your life.  

Much like aerobatics, spins shouldn't be feared, unless, of course, you are too close to the ground to recover. Like aerobatics and unusual attitude recovery training, proper spin training will assist you in not ever putting yourself into a position where a spin will kill you.  

That's my 2 cents.  

Regards,  

John Lawton

 Whitwell, TN (TN89)

 N245E - Flying  

  Checked by AVG.

 04-Aug-08 19:23

     [quote][b]

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rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: Spins

Hi William



"> I would thoroughly concur.  I did an “unusual attitudes” course in St

 	  Quote: 	
		   Augustine in an extra 300 and would thoroughly recommend it.  great fun and

 huge confidence builder."


	


I agree that it is a great idea to get spin training first hand.



The only thing I would like to add is that just because you spun in a

plane many times does not mean you know exactly how the plane you are

flying may exactly react as far as spin entry and recovery???



Many know that with all other things the same (weight and air density) a

more aft CG will make spin entry easier and a spin harder to recover than

with a more forward CG.



Some know that with all other things the same (Air density and CG)  the

heavier the weight of the aircraft spin entry will be easier and harder to

recover from a spin than in a lighter weight aircraft.



Fewer yet know that all other things the same (Weight and CG) that the

thinner the air  spin entry will be easier and harder to recover from a

spin  compared to flying in thicker air. Air will get thinner the higher

you go, the warmer the air, and the more moist the air is. If you know how

your airplane for a given CG and weight handles spin recovery with a

density altitude of 3K, it will most definite be far less forgiving with a

density altitude of 12K. Think about it, if you put an airspeed indicator

on the rudder measuring the rotational speed lets say it would normalize

at 20 knots (????). It would normalize at 20 knots with a density altitude

of 1K or 25K, its just at 25K you would be spinning like a pinwheel (much

faster RPM)! Add to equation that the rudder to stop the spin is airspeed

dependent as well and you should get the idea. If you added a more aft CG,

and more weight so the rotational inertia is greater you may very well

have a airplane that is in an unrecoverable spin.



You don't have to go to extremes, go on a trip and push weight to limit,

have CG pretty aft, and land at a high elevation airport, or even a lower

elevation airport but it is hot and humid and you have an airplane that

you may not know as intimate as you may think.



I spoke to a P-51 (the hot I think it was the G model) WW2 test pilot and

he spoke of his 2 weeks of testing by the book. His commander let him take

it up to fool around with after he did such a good job, but warned to not

break it. He rocketed up to ~ 20K to meet up with 2 other friends and

figured he would loop and meet them upside down. Horror set in when he was

going to meet nose to nose with him being upside down. He pulled on the

stick, stalled and entered a spin so fast he could not believe it. He did

many a spin, never that high. Spin was unrecoverable, he said he was

spinning so fast it was amazing. He decided at 8K to jump. He opened

canopy and unbuckled and when he stood on seat to get out plane, it began

to fly, so he got back in. His buddy was following him down and he was so

dizzy and disoriented he could not fly the plane. His buddy followed him

and told him what to do with controls for 20 or so minutes and he was then

able to land safely.



I am not mentioning this to scare anyone, just to bring awareness so you

are more confident to know how your plane might react configured in

conditions you never experienced before.



After Europa building often I go flying my model at night at the Local

High School. Often will get in many dozens of spins from high altitudes.

Sometimes the model for a given CG and weight would not even enter a spin,

sometimes it would just be wanting to spin and if you entered would be

unrecoverable and would make a hole in the ground. Elevation of field is

bout 80MSL. It was the thickness of air, hot and humid makes spin entry

very easy, cold and dry far harder. After learning plane and understanding

what was going on, I can adjust CG to make it perform as I want. 



Ron Parigoris



Andy mentioned in a letter I saw some time ago that if you fly above 1370

up to 1450, limit CG less aft by 1" and less forward by 1". Probably not a

bad idea, but if you are at aft CG for 1370 and flying at 1525 you better

be on your best behavior. If you are flying into Denver at 1525 and 1370

aft CG when it is very hot and humid, better best your best behavior. Not

much different than flying a tailwheel sometimes, strong gusty cross from

right on hard runway comes to mind, if you don't let things get out of

hand things work out nicely. For those that things worked out nicely for,

I am sure they knew what they were in for, and compensated. Of course you

could try and avoid undesirable things as hard as you can, but be prepared

in case you must deal with.

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wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: Spins

Leaves me quite pensive given that our field is at 8500'.  The instructors

won't do spins up here.



--

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DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: Spins

I have had the privilege of doing "unusual attitude recovery" training when  I lived in San Jose, CA in a Citabria with Amelia Reid. After 10 or so different  spins I was getting cocky. So she told me that she would enter the next spin and  for me to watch her recovery method. After three turns she fully released all  controls and the plane slowed out of the spin and simply remained in a shallow  descent waiting for me to fly her home. So don't always think that you are the  one recovering the plane, it may be the plane recovering you. 

  

 So to those that have done spins in their Europas......what is it like? how  does it handle? any areas to stay away from? 

 The advice of keeping CG 1" closer to center from forward and rear when  fully loaded are the things that I look for.   

 Mike Duane  A207A

Redding, California

XS Conventional Gear

Jabiru  3300A

Sensenich R64Z N

Ground Adjustable  Prop





Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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