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My First Ground Loop
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rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: My First Ground Loop

Went up last night for what was supposed to be my last lesson before getting my tailwheel endorsement.  Went over to do some hard surface work, and the first two landings were squirrelly.  Third landing the aircraft just darted left, with full right brake and rudder nothing would stop it.  Right flaperon touched the ground and the tailwheel is cocked to the left.  CFI thinks the bolt on the tail wheel broke and that is what caused it to shoot left, but I'm not sure.  Landing on pavement the aircraft was really grabby.  It will take some convincing before I want to go on pavement again.  Need a 12 step program; loppers anonymous. 



Ryan Wheeler

Kitfox IV-1200

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:02 am Post subject: My First Ground Loop

Ryan, Same thing happened to me last September. Dont feel  alone here it happens to even the veterans.  I put a piece of red  electrical tape on the top of the panel to mark my strait line. It really  helped. You need to make ALL your landings on hard surface. Then the grass is  just easy landing   It gets better as you start to feel the  airplane more. I promise.  Steve Bennett  4 classic 912

  

  In a message dated 8/6/2008 7:48:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  rawheels(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kitfox-List message posted by: "rawheels"    <rawheels(at)yahoo.com>



Went up last night for what was supposed to    be my last lesson before getting my tailwheel endorsement.  Went over to    do some hard surface work, and the first two landings were squirrelly.     Third landing the aircraft just darted left, with full right brake and rudder    nothing would stop it.  Right flaperon touched the ground and the    tailwheel is cocked to the left.  CFI thinks the bolt on the tail wheel    broke and that is what caused it to shoot left, but I'm not sure.     Landing on pavement the aircraft was really grabby.  It will take some    convincing before I want to go on pavement again.  Need a 12 step    program; loppers anonymous. 



Ryan Wheeler

Kitfox    IV-1200





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196853#196853

	




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  [quote][b]

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: My First Ground Loop

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: rawheels [rawheels(at)yahoo.com]

 CFI thinks the bolt on the tail wheel broke and that is what caused it to shoot left


	


Ryan, the only time I did a ground loop was when I broke my tailwheel spring. I thought first that the ground loop broke the spring but it was the opposite: the lost of tail control was the reason I went in the ground loop.

I hope you can fix your tailwheel and flaperon and are soon back in the air.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: My First Ground Loop

Ryan,



I have to ask the question, do you have the original tube gear or have you 

changed out to the Grove.  The reason I ask is when I was jigging up to make 

the taller wider tube gear with compression spring struts, I used the old 

gear as a starter to make the jigs.  These came from the factory seriously 

toed in.  It was visually obvious possibly up to a couple of degrees.  I 

would expect, since these were all made from the same jiggs, that every set 

was toed in.  I think this is a major cause for much of the ground handling 

problems with the early gear.  My first Model IV was toed in.  I caught it 

before first flight because in the then published Kitfox Times and article 

explained how to check and correct it.  That airplane was very docile on the 

ground.



Maybe this is the difference between the grass and pavement experiences that 

many have described as grass would not grab the toed in gear and pavement 

makes for the big surprise.



The tape on the windsheild is a great help.  I had it on mine, but check the 

gear alignment and see if that is what is causing the need for such extreme 

vigilance.



Lowell



---

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: My First Ground Loop

Another thing I was told makes our birds squirrely... Too much  air in the tires. Assuming you have the golf cart/atv style tire, The air  pressure should only be 7 to 10 lbs.

  Steve Bennett

  

  In a message dated 8/6/2008 10:19:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt"    <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net>



Ryan,



I have to ask the question,    do you have the original tube gear or have you 

changed out to the    Grove.  The reason I ask is when I was jigging up to make 

the taller    wider tube gear with compression spring struts, I used the old 

gear as a    starter to make the jigs.  These came from the factory seriously 

toed    in.  It was visually obvious possibly up to a couple of degrees.  I    

would expect, since these were all made from the same jiggs, that every    set 

was toed in.  I think this is a major cause for much of the    ground handling 

problems with the early gear.  My first Model IV was    toed in.  I caught it 

before first flight because in the then    published Kitfox Times and article 

explained how to check and correct    it.  That airplane was very docile on the 

ground.



Maybe this    is the difference between the grass and pavement experiences that 

many    have described as grass would not grab the toed in gear and pavement 

makes    for the big surprise.



The tape on the windsheild is a great help.     I had it on mine, but check the 

gear alignment and see if that is what is    causing the need for such extreme 

vigilance.



Lowell



-----    Original Message ----- 

From: "rawheels" <rawheels(at)yahoo.com>

To:    <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 4:46    AM

Subject: My First Ground Loop

 	  Quote: 	
		   -->    Kitfox-List message posted by: "rawheels"    <rawheels(at)yahoo.com>



 Went up last night for what was    supposed to be my last lesson before 

 getting my tailwheel    endorsement.  Went over to do some hard surface work, 

 and the    first two landings were squirrelly.  Third landing the aircraft 

    just darted left, with full right brake and rudder nothing would stop it.    

 Right flaperon touched the ground and the tailwheel is cocked to the    left. 

 CFI thinks the bolt on the tail wheel broke and that is what    caused it to 

 shoot left, but I'm not sure.  Landing on pavement    the aircraft was really 

 grabby.  It will take some convincing    before I want to go on pavement 

 again.  Need a 12 step program;    loppers anonymous.



 Ryan Wheeler

 Kitfox    IV-1200





 Read this topic online    here:



    http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196853#196853



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  [quote][b]

rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: Re: My First Ground Loop

Thanks for the responses:



TAPE: How do you align the tape; just set up on the runway and lay it down?



GEAR: Yeah, regular tube gear.  I saw the grove gear on the units up at Oshkosh. Looks really nice, but out of the price range right now.  I'll have to see if I have the alignment instructions, and check out my set-up.



TIRES:  I'm not sure if they are original or not.  They are pretty small.  Max Press is like 25 lbs, and I have them filled to around 20 psi.  Can 7-10 be right?



Ryan Wheeler

Kitfox IV-1200

Indianapolis, IN

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: Re: My First Ground Loop

Ryan hopefully the damage is minimal.  from your description it sounds like it is.



Like Lowel's, my tube gear was seriously toed in when first installed.  the suggested fix is to cold bend the gear with a six foot cheater pipe over the axle.  I didn't like the stress this would put on the gear and fuselage so I took the axles out and cold bent them in a vise with light taps of a sledge hammer.



The wheel alignment is now straight ahead with fuselage level (tail up). It is easy for me to keep straight now.



For what its worth about "Walking the rudder" in a kitfox.  If I try that like I did in the Stinson or Cub things get out of control in a hurry.



On take off I anticipate and add some light left rudder (left hand prop) when throttle is applied then a little light left rudder pressure when the tail comes up.  Thats about all.



On landings I just add rudder as needed.  If there's no cross wind and the touch down is aligned straight with the runway I don't need to add any rudder at all until the runway exit.

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: Re: My First Ground Loop

Ryan,

I just reread this thread and can tell by your questions you have not read the book "How to Fly a Kitfox".



This book was a big help for me.  It has been rewritten as "kitfox Pilot's Guide".  My opinion is this is a must have must read for kitfox owner/pilots.  I think it is still available from http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: My First Ground Loop

Ryan,



To align the tape, line up your airplane with a distant object - for me here 

it is a tree on the hill - by sighting from the rear across the vertical 

stabilizer and a vertical prop blade.  Then get in the airplane, wiggle a 

bit to find your flying position and place some narrow - the 1/8" masking 

tape works great - on the windsheild aligned with the distant object.   I 

found that the tape helped a bunch when landing with a substantial cross 

wind once on a must do landing late one evening in a cross country.



Lowell



---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: My First Ground Loop

At 04:46 AM 8/6/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Landing on pavement the aircraft was really grabby.  It will take 

some convincing before I want to go on pavement again.  Need a 12 

step program; loppers anonymous.


	


         Not at all, you've just joined the ranks of those who have, 

leaving the ranks of those who will. (I have, albeit slowly, and 

without damage. My right foot got stuck on the brake and around we 

went. I was practicing stop and goes with the tail up.) Now that 

you've gotten that out of the way you can go forward without worry. 

(Though I'd check the toe to be sure, and second Lowell's suggestion 

of putting a "gunsight" on the windshield. I added a horizon line for 

3-pointers, as well.)

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: Re: My First Ground Loop

Tom,



You are right, I've not read that.  I purchased the aircraft a few weeks before Oshkosh, so I have very limited experience with the aircraft. I don't see an online store, but I'll e-mail the McBeans about it.  



Some damage to the plane, but I don't think I'll be rebuilding a wing or anything.  The wing and flaperon looked and felt solid and straight.  There is a rip in the wing fabric and I think I noticed some damage to the right side of the turtle back.  So, Ill need to look into that further.   The big noticeable item is the tail wheel.  I'll have to bend the horizontal tabs back in place and then try to get it realigned before replacing the three bolts with new.  Guess it could be worse, but definitely not fun.



Ryan

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: My First Ground Loop

At 08:06 AM 8/6/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  TAPE: How do you align the tape; just set up on the runway and lay it down?


	


Set up on a taxi-way or runway. Get comfortable and focus at 

infinity. Closing each eye, make a mark on the windshield where 

runway centerline is. (Use a water soluble marker.) When you get done 

you should have two marks about 2" apart. Put the tape vertically 

midway in between these marks. When you land and focus on the far end 

of the runway the vertical tape should bifurcate into two, offering a 

"gun sight" in which you center the runway centerline. The poor man's 

heads-up-display! (This may require some iteration.)

 	  Quote: 	
		  GEAR: Yeah, regular tube gear.  I saw the grove gear on the units up 

at Oshkosh. Looks really nice, but out of the price range right 

now.  I'll have to see if I have the alignment instructions, and 

check out my set-up.


	


Go for Lowell's gear. I hear he's given' em away. 

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

peteohms

Joined: 31 Oct 2007
Posts: 224
Location: Leander, TX

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: My First Ground Loop

Ryan,



I wouldn't loose any sleep over the ground loop.  Now you have it out of 

your system.  I did the same thing in my Kitfox III with about 7 hours under 

my belt and my 6th landing.  A slight gust caught me off guard on a landing 

while I was patting myself on the back for my smoothest touchdown ever.  I 

think Grove gear saved me.  My right wing came within 2' of the ground.  I 

ran off the runway at 5t6 and had half of a complete circle when I got 

control.  I completed the loop and got back on the runway and announced on 

the radio "Kitfox 73BH has arrived".  Both of my flying instructors were at 

the field that day.  I now do not loose my focus on landing until I come to 

a complete stop.



I had tailwheel steering break on me on a KR2 once and I ended up running 

off the runway because of that.



Pete

Hell Paso, TX



---

_________________
Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove

malpass

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Marietta, Georgia

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: My First Ground Loop

20 PSI WILL MAKE YOU SQUIRREL ALL OVER THE RUNWAY !!  9 POUNDS IS GOOD.

---

_________________
kitfox III w/ 582 greyhead

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: My First Ground Loop

Cheer up, Ryan....my attempt to teach myself to taxi ended up like  

this, a week before my DAR visit...all was repairable, and it came  

out looking pretty good. It wasn't a ground loop, but a side gust and  

a dumb rookie who shouldn't have been doing what I was doing...going  

too fast and trying to see if the tail was up (it was) and then  

pulling back and probably some to the left, too.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")



On Aug 6, 2008, at 12:31 PM, rawheels wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



   Guess it could be worse, but definitely not fun.



 Ryan





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196925#196925

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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: Re: My First Ground Loop

Cheer up, when I did my ground loop I did it at Prime time Saturday

afternoon right in front of the airport restaurant which was packed 

and busy.



real nice tire smoking 270 degree turn right off into the grass. Loud 

enough tire noise from the 8.50's to hear clearly from about a mile 

away.



The unicom operator came up "N85AE are you ok?", I replied "I'm

fine but I probably need a change of undershorts ..." 



Regards,

Jeff

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: My First Ground Loop

That's attractive, Lynn. I especially admire the sporty effect of those grass-like streamers. 

  

 But seriously Ryan, if you fly tailwheel long enough you will groundloop. I got mine out of the way early too and it had nothing to do with the airplane. I do concur with those who have recommended checking excessive tire pressure and/or toe-in on the tube gear. Either condition can contribute to "squirreliness" on pavement. 

  

 Good luck and keep those feet a-moving.



--- On Wed, 8/6/08, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

Subject: Re: Re: My First Ground Loop

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 1:39 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  Cheer up, Ryan....my attempt to teach myself to taxi ended up like  

this, a week before my DAR visit...all was repairable, and it came  

out looking pretty good. It wasn't a ground loop, but a side gust and  

a dumb rookie who shouldn't have been doing what I was doing...going  

too fast and trying to see if the tail was up (it was) and then  

pulling back and probably some to the left, too.





Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")



On Aug 6, 2008, at 12:31 PM, rawheels wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "rawheels"

<rawheels(at)yahoo.com>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

   Guess it could be worse, but definitely not fun.



 Ryan





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196925#196925






	


	
	


           [quote][b]

Ken Potter

Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 85
Location: Lanark, Ontario

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: My First Ground Loop

As one our old investigators here at the TSB Canada says, "there are two types of tail-dragger pilots; those who have ground looped, and those who will!



Im still awaiting my turn and humbly accept my fate.



Cheers



Ken Potter

Kitfox II No. 483

Rotax 583, C Box,

98% finished

kitfoxpilot(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: My First Ground Loop

Not that this is what happened to you! but if you have not lined the fox up on the runway you will go hard to the left or right!!  hard surface is not a problem C just have to have happy feet on the rudder and make sure your goiung straight.

 

Ray> Subject: My First Ground Loop> From: rawheels(at)yahoo.com> Date: Wed C 6 Aug 2008 04:46:45 -0700> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com> > 

_________________________________________________________________

Get Windows Live and get whatever you need C wherever you are.  Start here

gary.algate(at)sandvik.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: My First Ground Loop

Ryan 

 

I have about 750 hrs now on Kitfox's and I can  still remember my first few landings on Tarmac - at the time I had lot's of tricycle time and of course I was a "highly experienced" 1/3rd scale RC modeller (specifically tail wheel) so I assumed it would be a breeze! Talk about wrong on all counts. 

 

My tailwheel training was given to me by the local Kitfox sales guy and all he wanted to do was get me off his hands so when he signed me off  I still couldn't make a straight line up the runway and usually ended up horsing it of the ground just to put an end to the torture. 

 

This all sounds pretty dramatic but for the life of me I couldn't get it right - (Same for landing) 

 

Then an experienced Kitfox pilot went with me and immediately solved my problems - I was aligning the tapered sides of the Kitfox nose with the centre-line of the run way so in effect, on take off and landing I was trying to slip the plane in a crabbed position. As soon as he pointed this out I put a small piece of tape on the windscreen that aligned with the runway centre-line in my normal seating position. After about a dozen landings I threw the tape away. 

 

Since then I've never had a problem - I even landed at the Sudbury airport with a  completely flat tire and kept her straight until almost stopped (No ground loop) 

 

Hope this helps 

 

Gary

 

 Gary Algate

 SMC, Exploration

 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655

 

 

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"rawheels" <rawheels(at)yahoo.com> 

Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com 

07/08/2008 12:46 AM 

Please respond to

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com     To

 kitfox-list(at)matronics.com   cc

    Subject

 Re: My First Ground Loop 

     

 

 

 

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "rawheels" <rawheels(at)yahoo.com>

 

 Thanks for the responses:

 

 TAPE: How do you align the tape; just set up on the runway and lay it down?

 

 GEAR: Yeah, regular tube gear.  I saw the grove gear on the units up at Oshkosh. Looks really nice, but out of the price range right now.  I'll have to see if I have the alignment instructions, and check out my set-up.

 

 TIRES:  I'm not sure if they are original or not.  They are pretty small.  Max Press is like 25 lbs, and I have them filled to around 20 psi.  Can 7-10 be right?

 

 Ryan Wheeler

 Kitfox IV-1200

 Indianapolis, IN

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196901#196901

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 

 

 

  

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