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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

I am having my UK built Kitfox II certified  (hopefully!!) tomorrow morning as Experimental Light Sport. I am doing last  minute additions that you Yanks want but the Brits never cared about - such as  decals and placards and an ELT. But I am a bit confused by the requirement for a  permanent fireproof Aircraft ID plate, as called out by FAR Part 45 subparts 11  & 13. 

 http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_45-13.html

  

 I  understand the need for one, and have  a  blank one in front of me from Aircraft Spruce, and need to engrave and  pop-rivet it onto  the plane before  tomorrow.  Hopefully those of you who  already have a plate on your aircraft can  answer:

  

 1. There's no place to enter the N  number(?)

 2. I assume "Prod. Cert." is left blank as amateur  built?

 3. For "Type Cert." should I put "Experimental Light  Sport" or "ELSA" or what? Considering I don't have the Airworthiness Certificate  yet but ELSA is what I am applying for...

 4. FAR 45.11 states "the aircraft identification plate  must be secured to the aircraft fuselage exterior so that it is legible to a  person on the ground, and must be either adjacent to and aft of the rear-most  entrance door or on the fuselage surface near the tail surfaces." How does that  apply to a Kitfox??

  

 Engraved stainless is tough to erase, and ordering a  new plate will take days, so I need to get it right first  time. 

  

 Thanks in advance,

   

  Bob Brennan

 1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade  prop

 Wrightsville Pa  



   [quote][b]

rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Aircraft ID plate

Bob,



1.  The registration number does not get entered on the dataplate. (N-numbers can change, but this tag is permanent to the aircraft)

2&3.  Production and Type Certificates apply to manufactured aircraft, since yours is an experimental/homebuilt, those blocks will be left blank.

4. Usually tags are riveted on the left rear of an aircraft fuselage, in front of and below the horizontal stabilizer.  I didn't build my kitfox, so I'm not sure what structure to rivet to.



Make sure that the Make/Builder, Model, and Serial Number blocks are filled in exactly as they are on all of your paperwork.  Those are the only required entries for the tag.

_________________
Kitfox IV-1200
Indianapolis, IN

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

At 11:53 AM 8/12/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Make sure that the Make/Builder, Model, and Serial Number blocks are 

filled in exactly as they are on all of your paperwork.  Those are 

the only required entries for the tag.


	


Ditto this. EXACTLY. (Had to re-do mine.) As to structure, mine's 

attached to fabric only, with a metal backing plate. They just want 

it in the vicinity when the plane burns up.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

Thanks Ryan and Guy,



I was thinking of riveting it to the inspection panel under the rear

empennage but my DAR just called and said no - has to be part of the plane

and visible from the outside. He has agreed to riveting it to the dash along

with the other placards, although I'm not sure he knows that the dash is

only held on by those "lord mounts" to a plastic gas tank... Oh well, his

suggestion, his approval...



Second question - although nearly done - I am mounting the ELT now and just

like the data plate there ain't much to fix it too except for cloth and

tubes. So I am opting for bolting it to the seat tray, as close to center as

possible, facing forward as required. There I can get to it easily to switch

it on manually, or unclamp it to take with me (it's made for that). Anybody

care to note where/how their ELT is mounted please?



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Aircraft ID plate

Bob, Although I am in Canada I can tell you that I have run into this before. I had had it ok'd to rivet to the gap cover under the horiz stab by one inspector but yet another ones would say it must be attached to a fireproof non removable place. Mine is rivets to firewall between the right side rudder pedals and since it can be seen from outside it was alright with him.

_________________
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rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Aircraft ID plate

I understand why it can't be on the inspection panel, because that would make it removable and no longer a permanent id tag.  However, I'm not seeing the logic of the o.k. on mounting it to the panel.  That makes it neither on the exterior, aft of the door, nor near the tail surface as the reg requires.

_________________
Kitfox IV-1200
Indianapolis, IN

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

Thanks Dave and Ryan,



Yes it's a tough call on a Kitfox, and I might not have picked a plastic gas

tank which would be the first thing to burn to mount to... But my DAR has

done Kitfoxes before and is the one that will hand me a Certificate (I

hope!) so I will go with his suggestion. He said it's mostly for the DEA,

checking on drug smuggling in small planes I guess. Although since anybody

can buy a blank plate from Aircraft Spruce and get a Dremel engraver, like

me, I'm sure drug smugglers aren't *that* stupid!



Any advice on ELT mounting before I drill holes?



--

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

Hi Bob C  here is how I mounted my ELT in my Avid MK IV. That is the tubeing behind the seat C under the turtle deck.  Kitfox 2 tubing might be different C my Kitfox 4 project is C but the ELT could be put in the same place on it if need be in a similar fashion.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building C Avids flying  MN

[quote] From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Aircraft ID plate

 Date: Tue C 12 Aug 2008 15:21:56 -0400

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: 'Bob Brennan' <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

 Thanks Ryan and Guy C

 I was thinking of riveting it to the inspection panel under the rear

 empennage but my DAR just called and said no - has to be part of the plane

 and visible from the outside. He has agreed to riveting it to the dash along

 with the other placards C although I'm not sure he knows that the dash is

 only held on by those 'lord mounts' to a plastic gas tank... Oh well C his

 suggestion C his approval...

 Second question - although nearly done - I am mounting the ELT now and just

 like the data plate there ain't much to fix it too except for cloth and

 tubes. So I am opting for bolting it to the seat tray C as close to center as

 possible C facing forward as required. There I can get to it easily to switch

 it on manually C or unclamp it to take with me (it's made for that). Anybody

 care to note where/how their ELT is mounted please?

 Bob Brennan

 1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 

 --

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matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

Thanks Jim, and it looks like the same model ELT as well. The  Model 2 tubing is very different yes, and the flaperon control rods travel  through that area when folding/unfolding which is why I can't put storage bags  or anything else there easily.

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim_and_Lucy  Chuk

Sent: 12 August 2008 4:06 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Aircraft ID  plate

Hi Bob,  here is how I mounted my ELT in my Avid MK IV. That is  the tubeing behind the seat, under the turtle deck.  Kitfox 2 tubing  might be different, my Kitfox 4 project is, but the ELT could be put in the same  place on it if need be in a similar fashion.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4  building, Avids flying  MN

[quote] From:  matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

  Subject: RE: Re: Aircraft ID plate

 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008  15:21:56 -0400

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: 'Bob  Brennan' <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

 Thanks Ryan and  Guy,

 I was thinking of riveting it to the inspection panel  under the rear

 empennage but my DAR just called and said no - has to be  part of the plane

 and visible from the outside. He has agreed to  riveting it to the dash along

 with the other placards, although I'm not  sure he knows that the dash is

 only held on by those 'lord mounts' to a  plastic gas tank... Oh well, his

 suggestion, his approval...

 Second question - although nearly done - I am mounting the ELT now and  just

 like the data plate there ain't much to fix it too except for cloth  and

 tubes. So I am opting for bolting it to the seat tray, as close to  center as

 possible, facing forward as required. There I can get to it  easily to switch

 it on manually, or unclamp it to take with me (it's  made for that). Anybody

 care to note where/how their ELT is mounted  please?

 Bob Brennan

 1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox

  Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 

  --

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

Hi Bob.

  

 On my model 2, the ID plate is riveted to the aluminum inspection panel just below the horizontal stab on the left side. FAA considered that "part of the plane", I guess.

  

 As for the ELT, I made a triangular mount out of aluminum angle and attached it with adel clamps at 3 points to tubing just forward of the header tank, at the mid-line behind the seats. It's accessible through the triangular opening in the cloth liner covering the area just behind the seat.

  

 Marco Menezes N99KX

 Model 2 582-90 C-Box



--- On Tue, 8/12/08, Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name> wrote:



 [quote]From: Bob Brennan <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

Subject: RE: Re: Aircraft ID plate

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 3:21 PM



[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan" <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>  Thanks Ryan and Guy,  I was thinking of riveting it to the inspection panel under the rear empennage but my DAR just called and said no - has to be part of the plane and visible from the outside. He has agreed to riveting it to the dash along with the other placards, although I'm not sure he knows that the dash is only held on by those "lord mounts" to a plastic gas tank... Oh well, his suggestion, his approval...  Second question - although nearly done - I am mounting the ELT now and just like the data plate there ain't much to fix it too except for cloth and tubes. So I am opting for bolting it to the seat tray, as close to center as possible, facing forward as required. There I can get to it easily to switch it on manually, or unclamp it to take with me (it's made for that). Anybody care to note where/how their ELT is mounted please?  Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa   --

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

Hi Bob C  I wonder if you are thinking about different tubing?  I would think that the flaperon linkage is well forward of the tubing that I'm hooked to C I know it is on the Avid.  This is about 18" behind and just about level with the top of the seat.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building C Avids flying C  Mn

  From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Aircraft ID plate

Date: Tue C 12 Aug 2008 16:19:39 -0400

   .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}   Thanks Jim C and it looks like the same model ELT as well. The Model 2 tubing is very different yes C and the flaperon control rods travel through that area when folding/unfolding which is why I can't put storage bags or anything else there easily.

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim_and_Lucy Chuk

Sent: 12 August 2008 4:06 pm

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Aircraft ID plate

Hi Bob C  here is how I mounted my ELT in my Avid MK IV. That is the tubeing behind the seat C under the turtle deck.  Kitfox 2 tubing might be different C my Kitfox 4 project is C but the ELT could be put in the same place on it if need be in a similar fashion.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building C Avids flying  MN

[quote] From: matronics(at)bob.brennan.name

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Aircraft ID plate

 Date: Tue C 12 Aug 2008 15:21:56 -0400

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: 'Bob Brennan' <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

 Thanks Ryan and Guy C

 I was thinking of riveting it to the inspection panel under the rear

 empennage but my DAR just called and said no - has to be part of the plane

 and visible from the outside. He has agreed to riveting it to the dash along

 with the other placards C although I'm not sure he knows that the dash is

 only held on by those 'lord mounts' to a plastic gas tank... Oh well C his

 suggestion C his approval...

 Second question - although nearly done - I am mounting the ELT now and just

 like the data plate there ain't much to fix it too except for cloth and

 tubes. So I am opting for bolting it to the seat tray C as close to center as

 possible C facing forward as required. There I can get to it easily to switch

 it on manually C or unclamp it to take with me (it's made for that). Anybody

 care to note where/how their ELT is mounted please?

 Bob Brennan

 1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

 Wrightsville Pa 

 --

mcrutchlow(at)hughes.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

Bob,

I bolted my ELT to the passenger seat tray facing forward. The remote is

wired to the instrument panel to make it legal in Canada. I can reach

the switch on the ELT from the pilot seat or I can use the remote

switch. Seems to work fine in the location and it can be removed quite

easily.



Mike C.

Model II, 582



--

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

If an ELT goes off in the woods and nobody (Sarsat)  is listening, does it make a noise??

  

 Anyway, here's pics of my install, I'll have to change to  406 I guess. 

  

 do not archive

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Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>

 Thanks Dave and Ryan,

 Yes it's a tough call on a Kitfox, and I might not have picked a plastic 

 gas

 tank which would be the first thing to burn to mount to... But my DAR has

 done Kitfoxes before and is the one that will hand me a Certificate (I

 hope!) so I will go with his suggestion.


	


        Every data plate I've seen on a Kitfox and most other airplanes is 

back on the fuselage under the front part of the empennage.  I just used a 

doubler and pop riveted it to the fabric.\



 	  Quote: 	
		  He said it's mostly for the DEA,

 checking on drug smuggling in small planes I guess. Although since anybody

 can buy a blank plate from Aircraft Spruce and get a Dremel engraver, like

 me, I'm sure drug smugglers aren't *that* stupid!


	


        Actually, it's so the DEA can figure out who your are after they 

shoot you out of the sky.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Any advice on ELT mounting before I drill holes?


	


        Just make sure you can get to it for maintenance and most of all, 

consider your balance.



Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

That's what I did, on the pilot's side. It seems to be a good location and

easily accessible. The only problem I am having now is mounting the antenna

- it's supposed to be a minimum of 5ft from the radio antenna and since that

is dead amidships it doesn't leave many options. I was thinking of mounting

it about 6" from the radio antenna using the same plate, and figuring that

if the ELT goes off automatically in a crash I will be in no shape to be

using the radio anyway, and vice-versa. If I'm capable of using the radio I

can just turn the ELT off, if not - it will work as it should.



But I'm also reluctant to add more drag, do I really need that 2nd antenna?

Does everyone with and ELT have a dedicated external antenna?



For the inspection tomorrow I have connected the ELT to the antenna and put

the hand-held antenna on my radio, which is a hand-held anyway. I won't be

using the radio for a while so can consider options after I start flying

again.



Bob Brennan

1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox

Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

Good to see lots of you using the same cheap model. And I found it  without even posting a request!

  

 I see you have the antenna mounted internally. I considered that  but what about the metallic UV-resistant coating that goes on before the color  coat of paint? I would think that would be like broadcasting inside a Faraday  Cage ie not a "good thing"



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Dave

Sent: 12 August 2008 7:46 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Aircraft ID  plate

 

 If an ELT goes off in the woods and nobody (Sarsat)  is listening, does it make a noise??

  

 Anyway, here's pics of my install, I'll have to change to  406 I guess. 

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Aircraft ID plate

 	  Quote: 	
		  If an ELT goes off in the woods and nobody (Sarsat) is listening, does it make a noise?? 



Anyway, here's pics of my install, I'll have to change to 406 I guess. 



	


Dave , just tune to 121.5 -- it makes no audible noise. 



COPA is still fighting the  new 406 ELT



You must be going the amateur built route for registration ?  How did you attach the mounting plate to the tubes?   I think in  AC 43.11 there might be a requirement fora certain G force that it can withstand.  your  MDRA inspector will know best.

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

That's a similar, but different, philosophical question to the age  old dilemma "if a man says something in the woods and there is no woman there to  hear him, is he still wrong?"



   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Dave

Sent: 12 August 2008 7:46 pm

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Aircraft ID  plate

 

 If an ELT goes off in the woods and nobody (Sarsat)  is listening, does it make a noise??

  

 Anyway, here's pics of my install, I'll have to change to  406 I guess. 

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

Hi Dave, I wasn't really looking for a noise, it was a statement modelled on 

an old philosophical question.



I truly hope that COPA is successful but It's not looking good.



In any case the rack is clamped to the fuselage using Adel clamps, and the 

antenna is internal because the manual allows for it. I agree that the 

silver coat may impede radiation somewhat, but it seems to work ok.



---

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: Aircraft ID plate

When I destroyed our Model IV in the emergency landing, one of the first 

questions I had while waiting to be transorted to the ER was where is your 

ELT.  It had triggered and the signal was loud and clear with it's internal 

antenna.



Lowell



---

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