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BHANCOCK(at)WORLDWIDEWARB Guest
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: The "50" |
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Well, it's in the books. For better or worse we attempted what is
likely the most difficult formation ever to be flown at Airventure in
commemoration of the 50th Anniversary of the CJ. For those of you
who have seen the video or pictures, the result was less than
stellar. There is, however, a story to be told. I'm planning to
write a more detailed account for the upcoming Red Alert magazine,
but the short story is this....
3 days of practicing prior to the event allowed us to get familiar
with flying unusual sight lines, etc. We were only able to practice
the 50 partially due to lack of airplanes and an under equipped FBO
(as Pappy previously mentioned). The brief and plan drawn up by
David McGirt was as good as it could have been. Everyone knew what
would happen, how it would happen, and how we would fill holes if
aircraft dropped out. We walked it through in it's entirety the day
before and game day preparations were all in hand on the day of the
flight.
Just the starting rumble of 46 aircraft on that fateful afternoon was
something I'll never forget. To look around the grass warbird ramp
and have nothing but spinning props as far as the eye could see in
most any direction was an incredible sight. Taxi, takeoff (5 minutes
straight out for lead before starting his turn to the north to allow
most of the aircraft to get off), and join up all went as planned.
Airboss said the show was on time, and after about 20 minutes it was
time to start our run in and put the "50" together. 31 aircraft took
up position in the 5 and the 0 and we were headed for history. At 3
minutes out we were all assembled and looking good. Approaching the
north side of the field at 1500', anyone that knew where we were
coming from could see that we were inbound and together....90 seconds
out and everybody's refining their position. I'm sure I wasn't the
only one in the flight that thought "this is gonna be cool!"....and
then disaster struck. "OK guys," says Mission Commander McGirt
(flying high cover and dressing the formation as necessary...all we
heard 'til this point was "you're lookin' great, gentlemen"),
"Airboss says he needs 5 minutes, so we're gonna turn this
thing..... We're 3 miles from show center and airboss delivers the
biggest screw job I've ever seen at an air show....
We did the best we could and after seeing the video for myself all I
will say is I am DARNED PROUD of our guys for keeping it as together
as they did...we had to change airspeeds...the lead of the 5 (Pappy)
passed the lead the lead of the zero (Pumper) in the middle of our
turn to keep things together....we maneuvered a total of nearly 360
degrees with 31 airplanes in a formation that was 8 airplanes deep
and 10 airplanes wide within 5 miles of show center with a 3 mile run
in and still had a recognizable formation. Yes, it was ugly and far
worse than anyone had hoped for. We are all disappointed with the
result. But the simple fact is that we did the best we could with
what we had and factors beyond our control sealed our fate.
I am proud to have been a part of that formation and proud of the
guys in the back that did all they could with the most nasty curve
ball they'd ever seen. Overall it was a great week....and there was
far more positive than the one negative highlight. It's the best
Oshkosh I've ever been a part of....and I've been there from year one
of Red Star airplane mass formation at OSH. Pappy, David McGirt,
Craig Payne, Russ Dycus, John Cox and a cast of dozens did a great
job of making it a fantastic week. One we can all be proud of.....
Bdog
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jland(at)popeandland.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: The "50" |
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It was a great week at OSH and West Bend and Alex and I were very proud to
be a part of it. Alex really appreciated the opportunity to represent the
Red Stars in the CJ.
Most of you know Alex was headed to the World Advanced Aerobatic
Championships this past week. It has just concluded today and the US Team
won the Gold! Alex also ended up in 6th place overall individually and won
the Silver medal in the First Unknown flight.
He did it flying a Red Star aircraft- a Sukhoi 29.
Fly Safe,
Jay
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yakplt(at)yahoo.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: The "50" |
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Barry, I have a question or three that I think is worth answering if you do not mind.
What lesson would you say was learned by this event? What would you do differently next time? If given the exact same circumstances, how would you plan on not repeating a great effort but with the less than desired outcome?
Admittedly a 31 airplane formation flight is not an everyday thing! It is a highly unusual and almost one of a kind effort. However, an Air Boss telling one group to slow down and another group to speed up in not unusual at all. The fact that he did it when you were on speed, in close, and caught you off guard is true as well. So, he threw a Monkey Wrench into finely laid plans. It could easily happen again if you participate in Air Shows, which is obviously a big part of the RPA.
Questions that come into my mind are:
The Air Boss is in charge of the show. However, that does not relieve the guys in the air of being in charge and responsible for their own safety of flight. At what point do you say: Knock it off? And better yet, who is allowed to actually make that call? Just the lead, or can it be anyone? I.E. "Boss we can not turn a 31 aircraft formation and get it right again in 5 minutes. We need to either call this off right now and have nothing, or go out to a decent outbound point and go for it again. If the formation lead was asked to make a 31 aircraft 360 turn, what would the response be if he said "Unable". Does anyone have the gonads to even consider making that call? If not, why not? My input to lessons learned would be to have this type of situation pre-briefed by all hands. Knowing ones own limitations is a well known phrase. In this case, one would think that maybe someone should be aware of the limitations of a 31 aircraft non-trad formation for the same exact reasons.
Your formation flight did not preflight or practice doing a 360 degree turn. Thus you were in dark territory, where people did not really have any prior experience carrying out a highly unusual and first time maneuver. Yes, they all had FAST cards, but how many of them had ever been in a formation so large let alone a 360 turn made while doing it.
Yes, it was Oshkosh... the biggest General Aviation event of the year and this one was especially significant. This means a lot of pressure put on all participants to "get it right". How much did that pressure influence spot decisions? Some? Not at all? A lot?
How well did the formation flight follow the original plan? It seems clear that it started off that way, but did not finish up that way. At what point when the plan fails do you say STOP. What parameters do you have making a decision to "wing it" and just do the best you can and hope for the best, in front of the whole aviation world by the way?
Those that know me are well aware that I always ask these kinds of questions. Not only of others, but of myself as well. I have a HUGE sign in my ARESTI clip holder that says: DON'T BE STUPID I personally need that kind of reminder all the time. You see, I love low level, on the dirt aerobatics. My hero is Sergei Boriak. At 56, I no longer have the "stuff" that I had at 23, so I have to keep reminding myself. DON'T BE STUPID. So whether it is a formation flight with a break into an uncontrolled field that ends up disrupting the usual ho-hum spam can traffic pattern, with a near miss as a side order, or.... a 31 aircraft formation at Oshkosh, it is my firm belief that lessons are always learned and such lessons are of value to others that are just getting started in whatever new flying endeavor I can think of. At the end of that flight, I would have sat each and every person in that formation down, and would have debriefed what happened and why, and then gotten input from every one of them on how to better prepare for such a screw job NEXT time. Those lessons and suggestions would be published.
The whole thing works in reverse as well. Well you nail it right on the button, and you feel it was because of something you really did right that was not usual.... it would be nice to tell everyone else what that was... so they can learn from your failures and your successes.
My 2 cents... and I thought about it quite awhile before writing it.
Mark Bitterlich
p.s. Yep, I know I will get SOMEONE angry with this post. My answer. If you don't want comments, suggestions and level headed input, then simply do not post it here. I am not an RPA member. I am a YAK owner that is interested in all things to do with YAKS. RPA is part of that, which is why I listen and think on what they say and what they post. There are some super nice people in the YAK community and a lot of them are RPA members.
p.p.s. One day it might be fun to have each and every reader of this list write down some of their very worst screw ups and mistakes. You know, the ones that really scared the B'Jesus out of yourself and anyone else watching. I have a LONG list .... longer than most I am sorry to say. But if you agree, I will be glad to take the top ten and list them. The point of saying this is to show that I far from being better than anyone else. Most likely I am much worse. But I am interested in getting better at everything I do.......... especially with my airplane. Any pilot that does not feel the same way is at a minimum stupid and at worst, freaking dangerous.
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yakplt(at)yahoo.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: The "50" |
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STUPENDOUS!
For those that are not big fans of competitive aerobatics, you have to understand that there is a certain amount of "paying your dues" involved in working your way up the ranks. Alex is a relative newcomer. For Alex to be rated as high as this, ESPECIALLY in the UNKNOWNS is enough to make anyone blink twice, stand up and pay attention. Realize that in the UNKNOWNS, you are pretty much handed a piece of paper that says 'GO FLY THIS AEROBATIC SEQUENCE. More often than not, this sequence is made up of really weird and hard crap that the OTHER competitors throw in there hoping to screw up the competition.
Jay, Alex is raising the bar.
Mark Bitterlich
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jland(at)popeandland.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject: The "50" |
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Mark
Thanks!
You are indeed right. The unknowns were made up of ten maneuvers, each one proposed by the other teams and all designed to be difficult to fly. They were truly brutal !!
Alex was 2nd and 7th in the two unknowns which added to 3rd in the combined unknowns behind this years Champion (Rob Holland of the US) and the European Champion Tamas Illenas (Hungarian)
Unknowns separate the Men form the Boys so to speak and we were all proud that Alex stepped up for the USA.
You can see the sequences at www.civa-results.com
See pictures and links at www.LandAerosports.com
Jay
PS- the density altitude here when he flew was 4300’ and he had less than 3 hours in the Sukhoi 29 he flew. All of the Red Star pilots/uncles who have helped me raise him and train him this past few years should be equally proud!
From: Yak Pilot <yakplt(at)yahoo.com>
Reply-To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 21:55:58 -0700 (PDT)
To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: The "50"
STUPENDOUS!
For those that are not big fans of competitive aerobatics, you have to understand that there is a certain amount of "paying your dues" involved in working your way up the ranks. Alex is a relative newcomer. For Alex to be rated as high as this, ESPECIALLY in the UNKNOWNS is enough to make anyone blink twice, stand up and pay attention. Realize that in the UNKNOWNS, you are pretty much handed a piece of paper that says 'GO FLY THIS AEROBATIC SEQUENCE. More often than not, this sequence is made up of really weird and hard crap that the OTHER competitors throw in there hoping to screw up the competition.
Jay, Alex is raising the bar.
Mark Bitterlich
[quote][b]
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ChangDriver
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 266
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Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:36 am Post subject: Re: The |
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Regarding the '50'....I assumed when I heard the Air Boss called for a delay that the 50 was broken down in to maneuverable 4-ships and reassembled. The call to the Air Boss would have informed him of such and that the flight would return in 20-30 minutes. Otherwise, the call to the Air Boss would have been that there was a safety of flight issue for the entire formation that would be caused by the delay and to assist in clearing the air space for the formation entry.
It is one thing for an Air Boss to put a singles ship, two-ship, four-ship or six ship into a delay is one thing as these formations are maneuverable. The 50 should have been viewed by the Air Boss and those flying it as a non-maneuverable formation.
My two-cents.
Craig
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flushjohnson(at)charter.n Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: The "50" |
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You have a son to really be proud of.
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MarkWDavis
Joined: 03 Jan 2007 Posts: 104 Location: Syracuse, KS
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Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: The "50" |
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Hindsight nearly always being 20/20, a request of "Boss, we'll need a
two minute outbound leg on the turn to get this gaggle turned around and
stabilized back inbound" likely would have been enough to have everyone back
where they should have been nearing the field boundary. The Air Boss won't
approve what you don't ask for. It's no different than a multi plane
arrival in echelon for an overhead break. If you're still turning at the
numbers, you're probably not going to have everyone in position, stable and
looking good. Unless traffic is a factor, I always try to hit no less than
3/4 to one mile for an initial with a four ship. Too many Navy years where
someone was always watching the break and you got hammered for not looking
good.
Mark Davis
N44YK
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: The "50" |
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Looking good on Final equals Es Sprit De Corp! It portrays Unit image. That
comes with experience and practice. A simple FAST card does not equal
anything without practice and the most important thing of all SA. SA comes
with experience. Many years of it. Leads aren't developed in a couple of 3
day seminars but over years flying as a wing. FLUG (Flight lead upgrade) is
no small thing either in the military that is. Those that have been through
the process know exactly what I'm talking about.
Come down final and be out of position around my ANG base one can expect to
be the object of discussion at Beer Call on Friday evening. You will be the
object of humor that evening for sure. Somebody will see it and somebody
will remind you of how bad you F*&^%$ it up. If you screwed up in the area
whether during ACM, on the Range, during a rejoin, BDA, departure, or
arrival, someone is going to let you know you what went wrong. If it was
dangerous, it will be discussed in the quarterly wing safety meeting or
worse at the FEB (flying evaluation board) where your wings are on the line
as is your career.
One learns in a fighter squadron that a thin skin and no sense of humor is
an open invitation to ridicule. You will learn to grow a thick skin and
always strive to be the best you can be. Because if you don't someone is
going to tell you about it or become a victim of aviations self cleaning
oven...a statistic.
It's like life as a tail dragger driver...your best landing was your last
one. Screw it up, you get to hear about it until the next one. Navy pukes
understand that concept well and we AF pukes kind of get it especially when
we screw up infront of the SQ CC or Wing King.
So saying all that, Yes, I saw the videos from OSH. The fifty looked like a
freeking flag flapping in a 20 knot crosswind. One person was out of
position in the trailing arrow too. No I was not there and personally I
don't fly in mass gaggles unless tasked to by people higher up the chain of
command than I. No desire to subject my rosey pink to the risk unless it
involves saving life, limb or going to break something in anger.
There are however lessons to be learned from this and they need to be
discussed for the benefit of all involved least they be repeated again with
possible worst outcomes than looking bad in front of a national audience.
Rumor has it there was a near mid air during landing.
That is what flight safety is all about! It is not personal unless you were
the one that was trying to kill me.
Doc
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MarkWDavis
Joined: 03 Jan 2007 Posts: 104 Location: Syracuse, KS
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Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: The "50" |
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Doc,
The Navy is probably the worst (or best) at critiqueing. Every
squadron ready room on the ship had a "greenie board" posted in a prominent
place where every landing grade was noted by color. Not enough "green"
grades and the peer pressure cooker heated up. When you walked into any
other squadron's ready room the first thing most pilots and NFO's looked at
was the "greenie board". It was damn sure the first place a new NFO looked
when assigned a new pilot. The LSOs not only graded the passes, but
comments on the break and formation were always made if notable either
better or worse than average. Even non LSO waved passes at the beach were
flown like a carrier pass and self critiqued by the pilot. Every formation
flight was also debriefed. Too slow of a rendezvous, too low, sucked or
acute on the bearing line got noted. When training students in the Training
Command, if the lead couldn't look down the bearing line and see three
aircraft lined up on the horizon, someone was out of place. Under runs were
very bad juju and virtually didn't happen in the fleet, even at night.
Mark Davis
N44YK
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: The "50" |
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You put it much more succinctly than I did. This was what I was trying to say and ask at the same time. So what is the proper response to the Boss when he tries to make you do it anyway?
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Craig Winkelmann, CFI
Sent: Sat 8/9/2008 6:36 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: The "50"
Regarding the '50'....I assumed when I heard the Air Boss called for a delay that the 50 was broken down in to maneuverable 4-ships and reassembled. The call to the Air Boss would have informed him of such and that the flight would return in 20-30 minutes. Otherwise, the call to the Air Boss would have been that there was a safety of flight issue for the entire formation that would be caused by the delay and to assist in clearing the air space for the formation entry.
It is one thing for an Air Boss to put a singles ship, two-ship, four-ship or six ship into a delay is one thing as these formations are maneuverable. The 50 should have been viewed by the Air Boss and those flying it as a non-maneuverable formation.
My two-cents.
Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197491#197491
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co Guest
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Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: The "50" |
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Honestly, I do not know. If we were 5 min early for a TOT, we S turned the 4
flights or did 90 left then 90 right. I have been a gaggle attach sortie
with 6 squadrons broken into 4 ship elements. We pulled the power back and S
turned to make our TOT's but we were playing with seconds not 5 minutes.
That was during the time that the Honduras Sandanist Communist regime fell
and Cuba threatened to send support to prevent the downfall of that regime.
We had 48 Vipers loaded 2X2 gun with 4 500 lb M-82's, 36 ship Eagle escort
loaded 4x4, 6 KC- 135, and 1 AWACS. Fidel rattled his saber but then sat
down and colored. We hit our TOT on the Homestead range on the money for
live drops! That was freeking impressive!
I personally would have said "Unable" unless there was a safety of flight
issue. If that had been the case, then it would have been drive out to the 5
mile initial and re-enter. We would have over 10 min late for the arrival
though.
Doc
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