Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Carriage of Petrol

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

frankm(at)clara.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: Carriage of Petrol

I was first refused more than 15L of petrol by  Tesco in Edinburgh 2 years ago and made enquiries about the matter.

  

 I first contacted the DfT.  They sent me a  guidance note which said, inter alia,

     

     "Petrol   Regulations made under the Petroleum (Consolidation) Act 1928 control the  quantities of petrol permitted to be kept in containers for          private use.  This limit also applies to carriage.   A maximum of two metal container each up to 10 litres capacity, plus a maximum  of of two         suitable and  appropriately-marked plastic containers each up to five litres capacity, can be  kept in a motor vehicle".

  

 I regards this note as rubbish and an example of  government departments making 'law' on the hoof.  Applying the limit to  carriage is at odds with what follows below, and plastic containers in  1928!!  Plastic containers were the subject of Regulations made in  1982.  I suspect the 10 litre containers were the old  two gallon  ones, which at the time were the only containers specifically designed for the  job.  

  

 I also obtained a copy of a circular issued by the  Health and Safety Executive intended to give advice to Petroleum Enforcement  Officers.  In what follows I have used inverted commas where I am quoting  directly from the Guidance Note, which was reviewed in 2003.

  

 The 1928 Act and the regulations made in 1929 and  1982 "control how petrol can be kept.  They do not specify the  capacity or construction of containers that can be legally filled at petrol  filling stations or that can be carried on a vehicle travelling on the  road."

  

 The 1929 Regulations "exempt certain quantities of  petrol kept in metal containers from licensing requirements.  The  petrol............. must not be for sale"

  

 "Up to 275 litres of petrol can be kept in any one  storage place without a licence............In calculating the 275 litre limit,  the petrol in the fuel tanks of vehicles in the storage area is included in the  total"  But, and I think this is because they don't know about the  marvellous 20 litre ones, "the maximum container capacity for keeping petrol is  10 litres"

  

 The 1928 Act and the Regulations "do not exercise  any control over the carriage of petrol on vehicles for private or work  use"   They "are solely concerned with the commercial transport of  hazardous substances and do not cover petrol carried on a vehicle for private  use"

  

 "At filling stations, there is no specific legal  restriction on the type or number of containers that can be  filled................petroleum licensing officers should advise filling station  operators to ensure that only containers suitable for the purpose are  filled"

  

 I also spoke on the phone to the local Petroleum  Officer who confirmed that there had been no change in the regulations since the  issue of the guidance note quoted above.  I phoned Tesco Head Office but I  don't think they were interested,  Certainly there has been no change in  their practice.  

  

 Short answer is - avoid Tesco.  Morrisons, and  Asda (if you have an Asda card 2p off) are usually cheaper.  If you have a  'Morrison's Miles' card you will get a £5 voucher to give to your wife every now  and then;  it certainly pleased my wife!

  

 Frank Mycroft

  

  

  

   [quote][b]

steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: Carriage of Petrol

Thanks Frank,

 I did some research today and found the document  from the H&SE that you referred to and I certainly got the feeling that  the rules are out of date.

 Not only that but the Trading Standards in  Hampshire and West Susex (my local counties) run by different rules despite the  guidance given to them by the same document, that which you have quoted  from.

 According to the legislation anyone selling  containers larger than 10 litres is committing an offence. Surprising how many  large companies in the UK are selling 20 litre plastic and metal fuel  containers!

 I will advise the forum on my feedback (if any )  from AOPA, Trading Standards and the Health and Safety Executive.

 Regards

 Steve Pitt

 G-SMDH

 PS I have received one suggestion (from a Tesco  employee) that I should trailer my plane to their forecourt, take it out of the  trailer to fill it up and then put it back in the trailer. Could cause an  interesting traffic jam.

 [quote]   ---

RoddyEuropa(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: Carriage of Petrol

It is a ridiculous rule - I just fill the containers on the far side of the  pumps, furthest from the payment kiosk.

 Also, at my local petrol station there is a sign saying only 10 litre metal  containers with a screw top are acceptable, illustrated with a picture of a  standard 20 litre jerry can, which of course doesn't have a screw top!  I think the only metal fuel cans with a screw top are the 1920's 'shell  petroleum' type ones you see in museums, which is probably where the thinking  behind this absurdity belongs.

 Roddy Kesterton

 #220

  

  

  In a message dated 09/08/2008 21:49:19 GMT Standard Time,  steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Thanks Frank,

   I did some research today and found the document    from the H&SE that you referred to and I certainly got the feeling    that the rules are out of date.

   Not only that but the Trading Standards in    Hampshire and West Susex (my local counties) run by different rules despite    the guidance given to them by the same document, that which you have quoted    from.

   According to the legislation anyone selling    containers larger than 10 litres is committing an offence. Surprising how many    large companies in the UK are selling 20 litre plastic and metal fuel    containers!

   I will advise the forum on my feedback (if any )    from AOPA, Trading Standards and the Health and Safety Executive.

   Regards

   Steve Pitt

   G-SMDH

   PS I have received one suggestion (from a Tesco    employee) that I should trailer my plane to their forecourt, take it out of    the trailer to fill it up and then put it back in the trailer. Could cause an    interesting traffic jam.

    	  Quote: 	
		   	
	


     [quote][b]

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: Carriage of Petrol

That usually works!

 At one Sainsbury's the clerk spotted the amount of fuel on the bill and  reprimanded me for it (3no 20 litre jerry cans), claiming that if the  petroleum officer were to spot this then the outlet would loose its licence;  which apparently limited the amount to 2no cans.

  

 Duncan Mcf.

 [quote]   ---

hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: Carriage of Petrol

Can someone tell me what a "petroleum officer" is and who he owes his living to?  And who thought it was a good idea to have such a person.  Are there  sergeants, captains, and generals in the petroleum corps?

  

 Steve Hagar

 A143

 Mesa, AZ

  

 

  

 [quote] ---

rick(at)amimotormanagemen
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:06 am Post subject: Carriage of Petrol

Hi Duncan

  

 Do Sainsbury's put any  alcohol in their fuel?

  

 All the best

  

 Rick

  

 G-RIKS

 Tri 912s



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan &  Ami McFadyean

Sent: 10 August 2008 09:06

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Carriage of  Petrol

 

 That usually works!

 At one Sainsbury's the clerk spotted the amount of fuel on the bill and  reprimanded me for it (3no 20 litre jerry cans), claiming that if the  petroleum officer were to spot this then the outlet would loose its licence;  which apparently limited the amount to 2no cans.

  

 Duncan Mcf.

 [quote]   ---

Bryan Allsop

Joined: 29 Jun 2007
Posts: 78

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: Carriage of Petrol

 	  Quote: 	
		  Notice that it is the Sainsbury's and Tesco's who are the main problem. I wonder if the rules come from the "5 pence off per litre" promotions they carry out from time to time. I can imagine some members of the public turning up with all sorts of containers to stock up for when the promotion finishes. I can see that management would have to give some guidance to staff. It is unlikely that they would have have concerned themselves with Europa fliers.We will have to use the local outfits who welcome our business. It will still be a lot cheaper than avgas!Bryan 	
Your PC C mobile phone C and online services work together like never befornew'>See how Windows® fits your life  [quote][b]

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: Carriage of Petrol

Hi Guys  

   

No I don’t think so, my local Shell garage has a similar notice restricting the amount and type of cans that can be filled.  I think it is one 10 litre metal and one 5 litre plastic.  There are also specific instructions as to how the cans should be labeled.  Fortunately the kids behind the counter never seem to take any notice.  

   

Pete  

   

PS Wish this weather would improve.  

   

DO NOT ARCHIVE  

   

   

   

--

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: Carriage of Petrol

The "5p" offers are usually limited to 100 litres, and the  pumps turn off after 3 minutes, so one needs to be quick!

  

 Duncan McF.

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

Bryan Allsop

Joined: 29 Jun 2007
Posts: 78

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: Carriage of Petrol

I rest my case!

  

 Bryan

   

 From: ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Carriage of Petrol

Date: Mon C 11 Aug 2008 22:30:12 +0100

   .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}   The "5p" offers are usually limited to 100 litres C and the pumps turn off after 3 minutes C so one needs to be quick!

  

 Duncan McF.

 do not archive

 [quote] ---

steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: Carriage of Petrol

I said that I would give feedback to my  investigations.

 I spoke and wrote to the West Sussex Trading Standards who  have since written and signed a letter to me. They could not have been more  understanding and tried to help. They said I could advise the group of the  contents of the letter. 

 Frank Mycroft set out the 'legal' position which is from a  Health and Safety Executive circular in December 1997 and reviewed May 2003, so  I will not repeat this. However I subsequently found another circular from the  HSE dated August 2006 addressed to Local Authorities relating to Petrol  Stations. In this document is Section 3.3 which states :  " ....petroleum spirit shall only be dispensed into the fuel tank of an  internal combustion engine, or into a suitable container. Any container used for  this purpose shall immediately be securely closed and removed from the licensed  premises or kept in a safe place".

 In section 1.12 a suitable container is described  as:

 "1.12 Suitable container means: - 

    a metal container satisfying the constructional and labelling requirements    of the Petroleum-Spirit (Motor Vehicles etc) Regulations 1929; or    
a plastic container satisfying the constructional and labelling    requirements of the Petroleum-Spirit (Plastic Containers) Regulations 1982;    or    
a demountable fuel tank of a motor boat or similar vessel; or    
a United Nations approved container for the carriage of petrol. " I tried to establish what constitutes the United Nations standards but  could not find the appropriate guidance within their records. However HSE  Circular CDG 2007 on packaging has the following:

 "Approved packaging 

9.  In most cases (the main exemption being limited  quantities) packaging has to be certified to UN standards. The international  agreements for the carriage of dangerous goods require packaging to be of a  design-type certified by a national competent authority. This involves testing  the packaging to ensure its suitability for the carriage of certain dangerous  goods. Such packaging's are often referred to as “type-approved” or “UN  certified”. Such packaging is marked in particular ways, prefixed by the UN logo  and followed by codes, the details of which may be found in part 6 of ADR. 

10.  For the example given above, P001 shows that a “steel non-removable  head drum” (a conventional drum with small openings) is coded “1A1”. Its marking  might be : 

    1A1/Y1.6/270/**/GB/**** 

This is interpreted as follows (see ADR 6.1.3.1)    1A1 steel non-removable head drum    
Y     for PG II, III    
1.6 maximum relative density (formerly specific gravity)    of contents. Not needed if 1.2 or less    
270 Test pressure of drum in kPa    
** last two digits of year of manufacture    
GB country of certification    
abcd represents the number of the certificate (in GB this    is all figures) " My metal 20 litre jerry can contains most of the above references -it  appears to have been produced for the German market as I found references to the  markings in their BAM website. However, my plastic container, purchased at  North Weald Aerofair a couple of years ago, does not although it is clearly  marked for petroleum use, is produced in Canada and complies with New Zealand  and Australian standards.

  

 In the letter from Trading Standards is the statement "...  it is not an offence to allow a customer to purchase more than this amount ( sic  15 litres), provided they are satisfied the fuel will not be stored and you are  using the appropriate container.

 Persons buying more than 15 litres of petrol for use in,  e.g. race cars, ....aircraft or boats, must use properly constructed and marked  containers which are properly sealed. They must not store or keep this  petrol."

  

 This letter was a copy of that sent to  petrol licensees just last week in West Sussex as there had been a concern  that hoarding of petrol was starting to happen given the rise in  price.

  

 To summarise:

 1) Most of the legislation is old or out of  date

 2) It is not illegal for us to buy petroleum for our  aircraft subject to the containers we use (not even 20 litre cans)

 3) It is not an offence for petrol stations to sell the  fuel to us subject to sensible questioning of the reasons for containers being  used.

 4) Local Trading Standards are not wishing to block our  legitimate purchase of petrol

 5) However garages do have the right to refuse a sale  whether into a car or fuel jerry cans.

 Accordingly, be prepared for scrutiny, perhaps get to know  where you are purchasing from and introduce yourselves to the proprietor. Anyone  worth his salt will be only too happy to sell 60 plus litres of fuel to  us.

 Perhaps contacting your own Trading Standards for a letter  to carry around might be worthwhile. At least it shows that we too can have  official looking document to wave around._ 

  

 I hope this has been of use.

 Regards

 Steve Pitt

 G-SMDH

 PS This is what comes of being retired and the weather  being too poor for flying.

  

  

 [quote]   ---

un.gif

Description:

Filesize:

183 Bytes

Viewed:

2342 Time(s)

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum