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Flaps or no Flaps

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john.marzulli(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: Flaps or no Flaps

"Fixing" the flaps would not give you any extra rigidity in the wing. The 701 uses flaperons down the full length of the wing. The "flap" action is mixed into the aileron controls, so you could reduce some complexity *POSSIBLY* by not rigging the flaps, but I would not suggest it.

   

 The flaps can help you really slow down the plane for some incredible landings.

  

 Good luck and DO NOT ARCHIVE

 John Marzulli



http://701Builder.blogspot.com/

http://www.GenevieveMarzulli.org/

http://www.JohnMarzulli.net/

 

 On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:28 AM, john butterfield <jdbutterfield(at)yahoo.com (jdbutterfield(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: john butterfield <jdbutterfield(at)yahoo.com (jdbutterfield(at)yahoo.com)>

 

hi list

after reading the message regarding the sale of the

flap motor, i wondered what the advantages of having

flaps over having them fixed.  I wonder if it would

make the wing stronger and if so, how would you "fix

 them in place".  I drove an older bonanza for years,

(E35) and almost never used the flaps.  For the few

miles per hour you reduce, i preferred the simple

standard approach.  If fixed flaps would make the wing

  [quote][b]

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: Flaps or no Flaps

Hi John,



First, let me say I don't think fixing the flaps in place would make 

much difference in the wing strength.  The flaps are attached with a 

piano hinge and probably present the same strength (give or take) no 

matter what position they are in.



About flap use, I would much prefer a plane with flaps to one without 

them.  They provide a number of different features that you just 

don't get with no flaps.  This includes slower landing, slower 

takeoff, and steeper descent for landing.  None of these things 

matter if you only operate from 10,000 foot paved runways.  However, 

to get the most performance on small or soft fields the flaps are 

indispensable.



Paul

XL getting close

do not archive

At 10:28 AM 8/11/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  hi list

after reading the message regarding the sale of the

flap motor, i wondered what the advantages of having

flaps over having them fixed.  I wonder if it would

make the wing stronger and if so, how would you "fix

them in place".  I drove an older bonanza for years,

(E35) and almost never used the flaps.  For the few

miles per hour you reduce, i preferred the simple

standard approach.  If fixed flaps would make the wing

a little stronger, coupled with the savings in weight,

i am temped to remove them.

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amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: Flaps or no Flaps

I agree with Paul,

to add from a purely function aspect, this is what I get from my flaps:

1- it greatly increases the visability over the nose at landing;

2- it does slow the plane down at landing;

3- it does truly allow for increased lift at high gross weights, given take offs from short and grassy feilds;



4- Resale,  got to think that when building as we have the word experimental stacked against us in the event of resale.



Juan Vega 427JV



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Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Flaps or no Flaps

Flaps are your friends they give you options that you don't have when they aren't there.



When I took my first flight in a 601XL at the Zenith Factory with Nick at the controls he used full flaps and the landing was so short that I asked if this plane can do that why do you go to the trouble of building the STOL.



I will use at least 50% of the flaps 90% of the time once my plane is built. Slower is better on landing because of a simple bit of physics. The force that is created by landing is a function of the square of the velocity.

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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Flaps or no Flaps

Also if the plane will be flown with a Sport Pilot license there is the

(theoretical) question of whether an XL without flaps can meet the LSA stall

limits. But as best I can tell confirming that your experimental aircraft

actually meets the LSA specs is an honor system.



-- Craig

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Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Flaps or no Flaps

 	  craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote: 	
		  Also if the plane will be flown with a Sport Pilot license there is the

(theoretical) question of whether an XL without flaps can meet the LSA stall

limits. But as best I can tell confirming that your experimental aircraft

actually meets the LSA specs is an honor system.



-- Craig 	




While there was at one time in the LSA proposal a maximum stall speed "in landing configuration" they changed it in the final regulation. Here is how it reads now.



(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity. 

By " lift-enhancing devices" they really mean flaps.

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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: Flaps or no Flaps

On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 02:22:15PM -0600, Craig Payne wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Also if the plane will be flown with a Sport Pilot license there is the

 (theoretical) question of whether an XL without flaps can meet the LSA stall

 limits.


	


Sure it can: the LSA speed requirement is a stall speed of 45 knots -

without flaps.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)

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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: Flaps or no Flaps

My bad memory I guess. I recalled that the flaps were included in the XL's

design (in contrast to the HDS) to meet the LSA spec.



-- Craig



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n601xs(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: Flaps or no Flaps

The flaps are attached to the wing using 6' of .025 angle riveted to the front of the flap at the top and the upper rear wing spar. I sent a simple drawing to Zenith with an explanation and they approved the arrangement. As far as the XL needing flaps, everyone will have an opinion. I talked to the guy that built the Harley powered XL in southern Illinois (his name excapes me) and he flew from his personal 900' field and didn't use his flaps, I don't plan to fly into anything shorter. Visibility over the nose will be affected due to landing attitude, but with the 0-235 blocking my view, it won't make much difference. Since there are hundreds of 601's flying out there without flaps I think it is a viable option. As I said previously, my main motivation was weight savings and to simplify installing a wing root fairing. I don't think I will miss having flaps, but if I do I probably wouldn't admit it : )

   

 Craig S.

 N601XS, ready to rig ailerons and commence ground testing



 

 On 8/11/08, Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)> wrote: [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)>

 

I agree with Paul,

to add from a purely function aspect, this is what I get from my flaps:

1- it greatly increases the visability over the nose at landing;

2- it does slow the plane down at landing;

3- it does truly allow for increased lift at high gross weights, given take offs from short and grassy feilds;

 

4- Resale,  got to think that when building as we have the word experimental stacked against us in the event of resale.



Juan Vega 427JV



--

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