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Mark III spins and rudder authority?

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grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: Mark III spins and rudder authority?

How does the Mark III Classic do in a spin? The reason I ask is we did a slight cross controlled stall and with just a tad of rudder input she dropped the wing fairly quick. I think it surprised my instructor. It spooked me. Stalls without rudder input are very docile and straight.  Is the Mark III safe to spin or not? We are not planning to spin it but it would be nice to do a more abrupt cross controlled stall for practice. I don’t have a BRS on the plane.



Also the plane requires very little to no rudder input to fly coordinated turns. It will not slip very well either. The Mark IIIs rudder authority is nothing like the challenger II where the rudder seems to be a whole lot more sensitive and effective in slips and is needed for coordinated turns.



Of course the MK III has a long tail and larger tail feathers.



Grant

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grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: Re: Mark III spins and rudder authority?

Anyone have any tips:?:

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lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Mark III spins and rudder authority?

 	  grantr wrote: 	
		  Anyone have any tips:?:  	




Well since noone is saying anything, I don't know about the mark III but the FSII did more or less the same thing as you describe. Power-idle and fully coordinated into the stall, it'd give a nice clean break and drop the nose forward a bit. Very nice and gentle, very controllable. You do have to be a bit "forward" with the stick to get it fully flying again if you recover without power. No problem. 



Cross-controlled stalls especially with some power on would drop a wing down in a very definite manner, but recovery was easy by simply releasing back pressure on the stick and applying opposite rudder. Again nothing unexpected or wild.

I recall doing a couple of falling leaf stalls and was able to hold it for quite a long time before it eventually felt like an incipient spin entry was about to happen. 



I don't believe the Kolbs are approved for spins so I never attempted one in mine. Therefore I have no idea how it would recover from a spin.



But from what I recall it was a very stable plane, especially considering there's only 1" of dihedral and no washout in the wing panels..... 



LS

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LS
Titan II SS

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: Re: Mark III spins and rudder authority?

Thanks LS.

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grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: Re: Mark III spins and rudder authority?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Possum: 



My boo boo. I related the photos you posted of Fergy ribs to the ribs and 

wing panels on your aircraft. 



To spin my Kolbs, I pull the nose up high with power at idle, full left or 

right rudder, and full aft stick just as it stalls. Hold it until you are 

ready to recover. Usually, relaxing the controls will recover the aircraft. 



My original FS would only spin one half turn at idle. It would recover with 

the controls crossed up and locked. During some experimentation doing 

engine off aerobatics, I did a spin. The little FS spun up like a top. 



The MKIII loses a lot more altitude than the FS. That was quite a surprise 

first time I spun it. 



One will have to work at getting a Kolb into an unintentional spin. 

However, I am sure there are those out there that can probably get 

themselves into one.  



john h 

mkIII

	




John,



Would you say the Kolb MK III is a safe airplane to spin? From reading the above it sounds like it is.

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: Mark III spins and rudder authority?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Would you say the Kolb MK III is a safe airplane to spin? From reading the 

 above it sounds like it is.


	


Grant R:



Mine is safe to spin.



Don't think I am at liberty to make a blanket assumption that all MKIII's 

are safe to spin.



I do think it is important to have spin recovery training.  At least one 

will know how to recover from the spin should he get into one inadvertently.



john h

mkIII

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jvanlaak(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: Mark III spins and rudder authority?

In my experience there are two things that can produce dramatically different spinning characteristics between airplanes of the same design:

 

 rigging - control limits, wing incidence, etc.

 CG - the more aft the more potential for going flat.

 

 I have spun dozens of different makes (including my Firestar I) and only had a few scary times.  But some of the scares came in planes "known" to have good spinning characteristics.  Perhaps the worst was a Decathalon that took full forward stick for 3 seconds to break the stall.  I was beginning to wish I was somewhere else about the time it broke.

 

 Be careful spinning.  I agree that training is imperative, and then approach every homebuilt airplane as if it was a one-of-a-kind, because it is.

 

 Jim Van Laak

 

 PS  My firestar spun beautifully (about 2 turns) but on the recovery I got a little zero G and killed the engine.  I had bad tendonitis and could not pull the starter from inside that cockpit that day.  Made a nice deadstick landing at the private airport I was intentionally over then hopped out and restarted it.  

 

 

 --

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JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Mark III spins and rudder authority?

 	  jvanlaak(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		    I was beginning to wish I was somewhere else about the time it broke.

 

	




Hahaha,



I like the way you put that !!!

 	  jvanlaak(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  



Be careful spinning.  I agree that training is imperative, and then approach every homebuilt airplane as if it was a one-of-a-kind, because it is.

 

 Jim Van Laak

 

 	




I agree totally here, I don't spin my MK III Xtra.  I have done plenty of spins in other planes that were meant for that.  I have no desire to spin my Kolb.  The Kolb is meant as a very stable, gently flying airplane, I fly it as it was designed to be flown... No aerobatics or spins.



Mike

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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:47 am Post subject: Mark III spins and rudder authority?

. No aerobatics or spins.>>



Hi,



Are allowed to do these. Airos and spins are prohibited here.  I know 

because I have a little sticker in the cockpit that says so.



Cheers



Pat

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