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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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 Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: RES: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction |
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Good observation and wise decision.
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Bob Brennan
Enviada em: domingo, 17 de agosto de 2008 14:25
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction
Personally measured and observed facts anyway, and as little opinion as possible.
Getting ready for my first flight since importing my KF2 from the UK almost 2 years ago, I decided to take what knowledge I had gained from the ethanol debates and apply it, and I am glad that I did. Here is what I have found so far:
In the UK I used "regular" petrol rated at 89 octane and I never tested for ethanol, although my UK built plane is placarded in a number of places warning *not* to use fuel with any alcohol in it.
I periodically ran-up the engine for a year and a half on US regular gas bought a year and a half ago. I know - stale gas, bad move, yada yada... I have already chastised myself on that one.
I bought new "regular" (87 octane, Sam's Club) about a month ago and drained the system of the old gas. I then began noticing dark fuel and black sediment when draining the sump before starting the engine.
Much to my chagrin I noticed my fuel drain tool, bought in the UK years ago, was actually a calibrated alcohol tester so I decided to buy and test some local fuel to find something acceptable to fly with. Here is what I found, on this date in Wrightsville &York PA:
Sam's Club Regular - $3.44/gal - stated as 87 octane - tested as 6% ethanol
Rutter's Premium - $3.85/gal - stated as 93 octane - tested as 5% ethanol
Turkey Hill Premium - $3.75/gal - stated as 92 octane - tested as 0% ethanol
The Turkey Hill gas is in my plane, the rest went in my Jeep, and I will buy and test Turkey Hill regular for the rest of my gas-powered toys in future, hoping that also is ethanol free. At least for now.
Now for an opinion - contrary to listers who said they use ethanol with no problems - I assume my short use of ethanol-laced regular (never flying) caused a breakdown of rubber fuel elements, true to warnings posted everywhere and the cause of the drained fuel contamination. I will carefully watch for any further contamination (I expect a little yet) and will then replace lines and filter(s). Note that I never ran the engine until all contaminants were drained out.
As stated throughout - this is all "for what it's worth" - but I try to base it on experience rather than opinion, and can post more test results if anyone is interested. Live and loin, I always say...
Bob Brennan
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: RES: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction |
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I think you have to ask an specialist because there can be different
chemicals added to each fuel that may not be blended into a single one.
Formulating fuels is a very complex job.
Espuny
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Frank Miles
Enviada em: domingo, 17 de agosto de 2008 19:08
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction
<f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net>
Guys, here's a dumb question, maybe. Short of just not flying, what is wrong
with burning a mixture of 1/2 ethanol fuel and 1/2 100LL? Half as much
ethanol and half as much low lead. How much low lead would a person have to
burn to really harm an engine? I am speaking of only the two cycle engines.
Frank Miles
K-lll w/ 582
Clarkston, Washington
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: RES: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction |
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Makes sense. But is there any additive that could be washed along with the
ethanol? Any necessary bipolar compound of gas...
Espuny
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 10:47
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction
I'll answer your question with a question... What's wrong with using a
mixture of say 3/4 washed gas to remove the ethanol and 1/4 100LL? That way
you get a very low lead content fuel with no ethanol and an octane rating of
greater than 91.
Someone mentioned on this thread that gas will absorb water... They then
went on to describe something less than .05%. After thinking on it a while
I've come up with three considerations. 1 the gas is only able to absorb a
very small limited amount of water where ethanol will dissolve and dilute in
any quantity of water. 2 the gas at your station probably is already
saturated with whatever water it can because most gasoline has travelled
through pipelines. Water is used in pipelines to separate shipments of
petro shipments. 3. The ethanol you are washing out has more affinity for
water than gas. Therefore unless you use an ocean of water to clean your gas
the probability is you will actually remove the water content of the
gasoline. For those reasons I have come to the conclusion that there is no
danger of saturating your gas with water by washing the ethanol out of it.
A worst case scenario is there will be less moisture in the fuel after
"washing" than before "washing".
Noel
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: RES: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction |
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Well, if gas can be washed that'll be a good choice for me. Even loosing 25%
of total volume it will still be a little less expensive than AVGAS and
maybe I can use it on a Rotax.
If anyone is washing off eth from gas or will start doing this, please, post
the results.
Espuny
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 13:53
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction
I've discussed this with a friend who used to own and operate an industrial
lab. They regularly did testing of various fuels including flash tests. He
told me that washing the gas is a good idea because it also removes any dust
and crud ( his word ) that may be in the gas. I figure any other water
soluble additives would be replaced with the 25% 100LL. The 100 LL will
eventually foul plugs etc but hopefully you will be past TBO before that
happens. I figure 25% 100 LL will produce a 91 1/4 octane fuel. Good for
either 912. Probably ok for a 582 too. Just check the main bearings for
plating at around 300 hr. A fuel mix may not run as clean as unleaded MOGAS
but it will probably run smoother with less chance of vapour lock or
altitude induced evaporation.
Noel
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