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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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 Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: RES: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
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Someone told me long ago that pure gas wouldn't mix with water, but they add
detergents (zwitterion molecules) to gas to keep the engine clean, and it
allows some water to mix with as if you make a blend of oil and a little of
soap and water.
Maybe it's not true.
Espuny
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Randy
Daughenbaugh
Enviada em: sábado, 16 de agosto de 2008 12:58
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
<rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com>
Since when does water mix with gas???
Well Noel, Since the dawn of the ages I guess.
You can prove it to yourself. Get some good dry gas with no alcohol in it.
Add a small amount of water - start with 0.10% and mix it a few minutes
until it all dissolves. Add another 0.10% and mix. Repeat until you get a
water layer that will NOT dissolve. You will then know how much water will
dissolve in that particular gas at that temperature. The amount will vary
with different gas because gasoline varies in composition.
Let's say you find out it is 0.50% water that dissolves in the gas. You do
the math on how much water that is in a 20 gallon tank. I assure you that
that is enough to stop an engine if the fuel gets colder as you are flying
and the water separates out.
It would simply be foolish (or fuelish) to put yourself at risk doing this.
Randy
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: RES: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
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Hi, Noel,
Reading to a specialized magazine I collected some additional information to
understand the differences in our realities. If I'm trying to tell you
things you do know, please, forgive-me.
1st. there are standards in USA and Europe that determines no more than 10%
eth into gas, and the disponibility of a fuel called E85 (not in every USA
state), wich contains 85% ethanol and 15% gas. For what I read, if you find
more than 10% eth into gas it's not legal.
2nd. In Brazil there are E100, 100% ethanol and some types of gasoline that
contains 25% ethanol, all of them (that's why I love AVGAS) . Can you
imagine it burning in an AMG Mercedes or BMW M6 ? It's a crime!
3rd. Alchool in USA and Europe are non-hidrated, but in Brazil it contains
7% water that remains inside it in the distillery (then,I love AVGAS even
more). If you want to test ethanol, just use a densimeter like these we have
installed in every service pump here, and may also be present on yours E85.
4th. ohmimeters that were used inside tanks since 1990 inside USA to
determine fuel composition were slow and not precise and were substituted by
a sensor of changes in the tank volume followed by the processing of
information caught by "lambda sonda" (I don't know how to write it in
English!) everytime you turn the engine on. This is the way we do it here,
too .
5th. USA and Canada have millions of flex cars built THE SAME WAY THEY'RE
HERE, but some owners ignore it and refuse to fuel with E85 . If you or a
friend of yours have one of these, it'll have a little plastic gas tank with
electric pump, like a windshield washer , under the hood, for cold starts.
In this case, ask the factory if it's really flex, try some E85 and tell me
what did you feel.
We have some different fuel disponibilities, but still the same problem :
how to fuel our planes. Rotax still didn't answer my questions, maybe
they'll never do it, and I refuse to buy another plane while still not
knowing how will it be fed in my country. So I'll keep trusting Continental,
Lycoming and Superior solutions with AVGAS. No Rotax or Jabiru for me.
Espuny
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: RES: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
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I'd better have written "availability" , I'm sorry.
You know we talk Portuguese here, and that was really a false cognate.
My English is not as good as I hope it will be someday. If you search my
texts will find a lot of mistakes, but I wish you understand it.
Thanks for correcting me.
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Frank Miles
Enviada em: domingo, 17 de agosto de 2008 20:10
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
<f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net>
Espuny,
"Disponsibilty" your definition of the word? I did a search and came up
with;
| Quote: | > > We are searching for a high disponibility and open source solution
> > for web hosting
>
> I've never encountered the term "disponibility" before/ Google turns
> up references to it, but primarily in English texts written by
> non-English writers.
I guessed disponible was the French word for available, and answered
accordingly;-)
|
OK, but the *English* word "disponibility" means something closer to
"flexibility" than to "availability". (Check OED.) I think we have a
false cognate/borrowing here...
Frank
Clarkston, Washington, USA
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: RES: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
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Yes, Frank. You can call me Francisco or Espuny. My nearest friends usually
refers to me using my last name to avoid mistakes, because there are many
"Franciscoe" here while there are only seven male "Espuny" in the hole
Country (7/180.000.000).
Your observation was OK. It was a favor.
Espuny
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Frank Miles
Enviada em: domingo, 17 de agosto de 2008 21:34
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
<f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net>
Espuny,
I was not being critical. I like to learn new words but could not find that
in our dictionary. My wife and I always have one handy. I think that you do
very well with English and I appreciate your contribution to the site. Keep
it up. Do you informally use your last name?
Frank
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: RES: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
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Oh, I didn't notice you were so far nort !
Our realities are quite different, not just talking of fuels.
I understand now that you have to be worried about ethanol.
And I also imagine the amazing landscapes you have in sight far there while flying ! I'll try it at the Flight Simulator 
Espuny
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 11:20
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
2. Fuelling the cars you mentioned on ethanol would require taking the driver out an flogging him/her severely with a wet codfish! J
3. hydrated ethanol would be easier to make and handle than ethanol which is virtually water free at the refinery. Water is the enemy and it is the reason I wouldn't use it in an aircraft engine.
4. we are still using the old Wheaton bridge resistance float type gas gauges in our cars. From the sounds of things you are using a capacitance type volume indicator similar to what is used on larger planes. That would be a great advancement. Not only do you get faster readings but you get them without the use of moving parts... One less part to wear out in the fuel tank
5. I live in Newfoundland, an island in the North Atlantic. We don't have a commercial corn crop here. Neither do we have a way to get ethanol here in anything larger than a keg ( the way I like to get it!) So the chances we will ever see E anything here is remote. Shippers don't want to put it in their ships and it has to be added at the distribution point. The only way that could be done is by shipping it in here as pure ethanol in specially built sealed trucks. Even then I doubt quantities would be sufficient to make E10 for all our gas. I have seen a few new minivans sporting the flex fuel badges but they have to be fuelled with straight gasoline. E85 or E100 will probably turn up here ten minutes after you know where freezes over. In the mean time we will see exactly how flex those vehicles really are by how well they handle the gasoline.
Rotax and Jabiru are much higher technology than the Lycoming and Continental engines. They were designed to TBO at close to double the time on the older engines. The presence of lead will add all the problems the older engines had. As for ethanol use the engines would want to have the heads planed a few thousandths or special pistons to increase the CR and then all the seals may need to be changed. Rotax and Jab won't do that at this time because there are just too many countries where good MOGAS is available.
Noel
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