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zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
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 Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: Very Long Post for Flicka, sorry guys just delete. |
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I am not sure how long I will have E-Mail, but I will try to at least get one letter off.
Hello Flick, as a new person you do not know me and as such you may find me just another money grubbing person from a company after your hard earned cash. Others on this list will attest that I have been here on this list since the very beginning some 10+ years ago as a builder such as yourself. I am also the webmaster of www.ch601.org and www.ch701.com as well as other aircraft sites non Zenair related.
I am a heavy supporter of Plans building, providing seminars and forums on how to build from plans. I will also be doing a hands on forum at the Zenith open house in September.
I have donated my company's time to Homebuilthelp to produce a few DVD's on education of building Aircraft and components, receive no royalties for my time on these nor pay for time spent. I enjoyed doing them and have helped a great many people over the years.
I started Can-Zac Aviation Ltd 3 years ago to support the Canadian Market and builder.
Now on to some of your questions, I may not get to all of them due to E-Mail issues.
I have noticed that the USA zenair site, makes no explicit approval of the the JAB3300.
Yet, on the CAN-ZEN site, they explicitly say that the JAB3300 is a suggested engine for the 701.
IT is Can-Zac, just to clarify. Zenith is a kit Aircraft manufacturer, they do not support one engine over another nor do they provide support for engines, they do make recommendations based on trials and designer’s imput. They are simply a kit manufacturer. Can-Zac Aviation is a Distributor and as such we often have more opinions and information on helping our customers make some decisions. IN Both cases the companies only make recommendations to the builders and do not force you to install one thing or another. Look at Zenith’s picture gallery and you will see all sorts of customized planes, Zenith is proud of it’s customers and there accomplishments, unlike many other companies that state no changes are allowed to the plane, cosmetic or not. Even one company that I know of will not allow you to use the planes name if you install a Corvair engine.
IS the Jabiru A suggested engine for the 701, sure it is so is the Rotax and the Continental, we have FWF packages available from companies. Personally I would not install a Jabiru in the 701, I can think of no better engine for the 601 or 650 but I can only personally recommend the Rotax 912 for the 701. THE 750 may do well with the Jabiru 3300 I will wait until I talk to Peter at Jabiru USA before I can comment on that one.
Is the ZEN-CAN QB 701 a little stronger up front for the slightly higher HP?
Exact same kit, we only add labour
I'm seeing MORE&MORE JAB3300's on 701's, it seems to be the best bang for the buck.
Final costs between the 3300 and the 912ULS plus FWF brings both to about the same costs in Canada. The performance of the 912ULS and lighter weight for the 701 airframe make it a better choice in my opinion.
More interesting the can-zen site makes it sound like the O-200 is an option, yet that is 215LB's even for the new TMX O-200 LSA engine.
Is this a typo? A different engine? A cut&paste from the 601 an nobody reads or edits the site?
No Typo and yes I read the website several times before I post it ( yes I still make mistakes) There are many 701’s out there with the 0-200 and there owners seem happy with their choice. It is the philosophy of the Company that you may be having an issue with, it is not a spoon fed kit you do have options to suit your needs, if you need to install an 0-200 to suit your budget, hey I say go for it. Realize performance will not meet the 912ULS but neither will costs.
Let's address the basics; You say "I don't understand why you have a hard time, getting info from zenith". Nobody ever said zenith was known for customer-service. I know from personal experience from calling and/or emailing that my email never get returned ( info(at)zenair.com ), and that when I call its always some old gal that is hard of hearing.
Please remember that the Folks at Zenith and the typical builder are friendly people on the whole. They are not a retired military or a hard sales tactic type to push a sale over on you. If it fits and meets your needs then they will help you the best they can. Zenith is well known for great customer service, you don’t need a friend at the factory, you just need a civil, friendly mannerism and though sometimes things may fall through the cracks like E-Mails then simply call and ask for Roger or Caleb on the Tech side and Shirley on the order and money side. As for Shirleys hearing, she is a strong woman, that shoots it straight and will not tolerate foolishness or an un-civil manner. IF you go in with a huff you will get a wall, if you are sweet she will be chocolate.
Paying someone $20k up front cash, that you don't know, is a very risky biz proposition, Zen we are led to believe is quite strong, their terms are explicit 50% cash up front for an order. I'm sure if you want to pay more they'll take it.
I agree, and constantly marvel at people spending large sums of money on new companies. Zenair has been in business for over 36 years with one of the strongest track records in the business. It is one of the reasons why most people are attracted it is not just the Chris Heintz designs. It is the company support, the history and the fact that they are one of the largest Aircraft Kit Companies in the World.
I have had the order for the CH-750 plans for a month now, and they're telling me November for the plans, and the same for the wings. I learned that when the told me the rudder was the same. Since then I have never ever gotten another question answered.
You learn from past mistakes, when the 601XL plans were first released many changes were needed and updates were often done. In the STOL CH750 the plans are available for the plans builder and someone is working on plans building the plane now to ensure everything is as right as possible.
The people at QSP people at EAA-Arlington told me that the same people in the Philippines that were doing vans QB were doing that for Zenith, but that Zen had got pushed to the back of the queue, and thus was going elsewhere. That could be what your talking about. I live near Van's, I looked at some of the QB's just for the hell, They have piles to the ceiling of them at their factory. I wasn't that impressed with the flush riveting that said, given that zen is pull-rivet its different, I have never seen a zen QB. My hunch is that SA quality could be worse as these new have even less experience basically Van's taught the people in Philippines how to build QB's, but they have so much work, Zenith got pushed out.
Wrong information, You would have to talk to one of the Heintz to get a clarification. I know that the 601 and 650 series QBK were being done in Ontario for the AMD version and that is where I got my QBK’s for the Canadian Market as well as the Northern U.S. Market.
To me throwing down $10k-$20K cash to an unknown company in Mexico, MO is a big gamble. To me its essential to ask questions. To me the release of the 750 is like the 801, how was that for the first adopters??
Zenith is likely the largest kit company in the world, I would also say that they have more flying planes then Vans. Please ask your questions in a civil manner to the fellow builders on this list, however you should also do a little more research. If Zenith is an Unknown to you then I believe you have not looked at Google yet.
In the RV world there are 100's build-log websites, where you can email directly to a builder, and get real info about a company. In the Zenith world, it appears that MOST builders aren't HTML/HTTP geeks, which means is there are very few websites that contain good technical information, ran by a person who knows their stuff, and thinks like an engineer, because they are an engineer.
Personal opinion, the RV world is populated by a very high majority of Military and Ex-Military, these are people with a regimented lifestyle and necessary bonus to building a plane in solid rivets. They may have better websites due to lifestyle and availability. Zenith members though they come from all styles and walks in life, they tend to be more relaxed, the 701 I believe is in more farms and barns then any other model out there. Many don’t even have internet, they are sitting with their buds.
However there are a great many websites with uncountless hours spent by builders of Zenith products. Though once they are done building they tend to disappear, as they spend all the spare time flying.
Let's take the last answer, "if your not happy move on". Well zenith doesn't answer questions, and you did answer a few. Basically you told me that you have paid 100% of ASK PRICE, and your going to sit like a good pup and wait for Uncle Heintz to ship your toys when they're good & ready.
Flick, condescending and ignorant in one sentence, it is easy to understand your lack of responses, your posts upset me on a first read and it takes a few tries to write a response that is not as strong. Zenith, as stated before is a kit company, if the design is not suited to your needs then please don’t buy it. We do not have sales men, at the shows are the same guys that work the factory floors. It is your decision, no pressure no hassels. I believe from some of your other posts that you have had a problem in the past , sounds also like you had issue with the Van’s world. Please keep in mind, different crowds here. We are not here to fleece every cent out of you, as you inferred in another post about builders centers. Some designs do so and lend themselves to doing as such. That just isn’ the fact here. Heck I just bought myself a new Truck, a 97 Explorer to replace my 76 ford Van. That is not the sign of someone who fleeces it’s customers.
Lastly, there seems to be some tangential misunderstanding that asking questions means you think Zenith sucks. That's a theory of weak minds. I think asking questions is essential. Getting answers to those questions shouldn't be so hard.
Flick, It is not asking questions that is a problem, that is why builders have Forums and list to help each other out. They are not the company, but typically will support their decisions and other builders while and after the building process has begun for them. It is your aggressive attitude that leaves many bewildered and defensive, your first post was offensive to a few readers myself included, as such many would not respond to your questions. The Uncle Chris line is used in a derogatory manner upsetting many others, as you have seen a few responses to.
No questions needed, the facts on the info sheet" that's a recurring theme here, 'no questions needed' just EAT the SLOP in front of you, and be a good camper, otherwise Uncle-Heintz might send you off to purgatory. There are all kinds of people. Too many of these happy clubs become a family, and the family's gatekeepers protects the family from outsiders, who just might ask tough questions.
I have a very hard time being civil with this Question. It is not a surprise that it elicits an angry response. However if an individual is used to spending life cheating or being cheated then understanding can follow. I don’t know which Flick has been.
Unless you have placed your butt into the 750 then the info sheet is all you have, plus the recommendations of those who have sat and flown in the plane of which due to It being a new model are very few. For those who bought site unseen, not is simply “eating the slop” it is a decision based on respect and values of the Company, known by those who have made a deposit sight unseen.
You will find that Zenith and Chris Heintz is hold of the highest respect in the industry, it is not just a blind calling it is a respect that has been well earned over a great many years. Chris Heintz is not only a designer devoted to making the kit industry and his designs available to the average person. But he has also devoted a lot of time to the average persons learning. In Canada a lot of our Aviation categories and regulations are written verbatim from Chris’s recommendations.
Read the websites, try to be a little more civil and less aggressive and everyone here will be happy to answer the questions they are capable of. This list is a great bunch of people and having them on your side is a bonus. Upsetting everyone with a forceful attitude, in the end will only hurt yourself and distance you from a great bunch of People.
Mark Townsend
Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.
president(at)can-zacaviation.com
www.can-zacaviation.com
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stepinwolf
Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Very Long Post for Flicka, sorry guys just delete. |
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This response of yours shows that you are once again a gentlemen. The recipient of this explanation of yours, does not deserve your precious time nor effort, that would be better served by scratch building your own airplane.
I would strongly recommend, that you don't waste any more of your time, on this type of individual.
Bob the 701 & 750 Scratch
Three Rivers , Quebec
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bobefx(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: Very Long Post for Flicka, sorry guys just delete. |
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Mark,
Thank you. Well stated and right on.
Flick, please read, and put into practice.
Bob
do not archive
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