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RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Wise words...

And we may have disponibility of AVGAS for a hole generation. Or will they

wreck every piston Cessna, Piper and Beech flying around the world?

  



-----Mensagem original-----

De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de fox5flyer

Enviada em: sexta-feira, 15 de agosto de 2008 08:49

Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Assunto: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?






Note that I've changed the Subject line slightly.  It's amazing how easily 

misinformation can be spread on the Internet.  It's so easy for someone who 

is a good writer to sit down at their keyboard and write whatever they want 

without any basis to it and if they post it to the right places and people, 

it can spread like a prairie fire on a dry, windy day and be very difficult 

to stop.

I'm really baffled by all this anti-100LL talk.  Lubricate valves?  Back in 

the 20s and 30s or so when engineers like Charles Kettering (Boss Kett) were



trying to coax more HP out of auto engines they found that they could 

achieve significantly more power by increasing the compression ratio.  The 

problem with that was that it caused severe detonation which was destroying 

engines.  Somewhere along the line they found that by adding lead to the mix



which raised the octane level they could successfully raise the compression 

level, thereby increasing HP.   Valve lubrication was not the reason it was 

developed, IIRC.

As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine, not true.  As I recall, 

there was only one engine that was affected by this and that was one of the 

versions of the IO540.  It was found in that particular engine that when 

100LL was used coupled with Shell 100 percent synthetic that the lead 

deposits would not stay in suspension and resulted in some bearing problems.



This caused massive lawsuits (expensive repairs), mostly aimed at Shell who 

pulled their 100 percent synthetic off the market, and the normal resulting 

anecdotal hysteria resulted that follows this sort of thing.  Shortly, it 

became dangerous to use 100LL in your airplane regardless what engine it had



in it.

Soon, to be on the safe side, some engine manufacturers recommended that 

synthetic oil not be used with their engines that used 100LL or to add lead 

dispersants.  "Not recommended" is not the same as "Prohibited".  Just 

because they don't recommend it doesn't mean that the fuel is necessarily 

bad for the engine.

The Rotax 912 and many other engines were designed from the ground up to run



on unleaded gasoline so 100LL is not necessary.  However, this ethanol scare



has people running for other options, mostly 100LL which is about the only 

other one available.  Is it bad for the engine?  I doubt it.  Probably the 

worst thing is for your wallet.  Is ethanol bad for your engine?  None of us



know for sure yet whether it is or not, but I suspect that we're going to be



stuck with it.

My opinion, which is worth what you pay for it, is if you feel you need to 

spend the extra money on 100LL, go ahead and use it.  If you want to use it 

exclusively, as a precaution, just don't use it with pure synthetic oil. 

Use a blend.  Also, be very careful of what you read here on the Internet. 

Take all of it with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research 

before you consider anything as gospel.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Lead is used to lubricate the valves on the archaric aircraft engines. 


	




Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.

Atualizado em 15/08/2008

espuny(at)terra.com.br
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

The discussion on ethanol moved to 100 LL because there are no intermediate

options on the orizon.

Didn't this begin with someone inviting us to force the oil companies to

keep delivering pure unleaded gas?

Sorry, if I'm wrong.

Well, about that information on C65 runing on autogas, I have to say that my

Continental cannot even feel the smell of alchool. It runs as the gears were

square, and spits water. The same gas inside my car tank was fine. I tried

once and will never do that to my baby again.

Maybe our engines are like us : some can bear more GL degrees inside

beverage than other 



do not archive

-----Mensagem original-----

De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de fox5flyer

Enviada em: sexta-feira, 15 de agosto de 2008 13:35

Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Assunto: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?






Fair enough, Dave.  I tend to agree with you on what you stated in a 

previous message about running autogas.  Not a real big deal, IMO.  I ran my



582 pretty much the same as you and it went over 500 hours before being 

overhauled, yet still looked good inside.  I do take exception when I read 

statements referring to fuel like "It's no good after it sits in the can for



3 weeks".  No, I'm not quoting you.  Just something I read recently.

If you read my last sentence below, I stated that "Valve lubrication was not



the reason it was

developed, IIRC."  I didn't say that it doesn't lubricate valves. 

Personally, I don't know that it does or doesn't help the valves, but I can 

say that there are a lot of very old certified A65s, A85s, O200s, etc 

running around out there just fine on unleaded mogas.  I read somewhere that



leaded gas is only necessary for the breakin period, but even that was an 

opinion and I didn't give it a lot of credence because it wasn't backed up 

with any data.   Again, only my opinion.

Staying tuned...

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil 1 that had the problems  and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil and takes care of lead very well.

I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft engines.

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another

"Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we no

longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!

There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get

someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to stock

some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the

distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in

additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we

don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are removed,

we are screwed!



Frank Miles

Clarkston, Washington

K-III w/ 582



--

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Not sure about that Frank. While the whole silly ethanol thing has not hit 

here yet, I'm lead to believe that all distributors would actually have 

Ethanol free fuel in any case because the booze must be added to the fuel at 

the closest point to sale possible. It isn't added at the refinery. I expect 

this fuelishness will pass eventually unless a new ethanol technology is 

created because it doesn't save fuel, it just makes midwest (corn market 

states) republicans re-electable.

---

bjones(at)dmv.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

What are the reasons, other than inconvenience, not to buy premium auto gas in 

5 gallon containers, pouring a can full into a larger funnel bottom container 

that has a flexible clear tube and valve at the bottom, adding a gallon of 

water, shake, let the alcohol and water settleout, drain off the settleout, and 

then drain the remaing straight gas back into the original 5 gallon container. 



Multiple technical folks who deal with ethanol blended gas for the big general 

aviation organizations as well as a couple of scientists who work in the fuel 

and additive business indicate that if done properly this works although the 

residual gas will have 3 to 5 octane less than the original premium auto fuel 

with 10 percent ethanol.



None could officially recommend this process on behalf of their organization 

because there is an obvious environmental concern regarding disposal of the 

settleout, and the inevitability of a law suite against their organization if 

someone does not do it carefully and crashes.

 

I bet many if not most of us routinely fuel our 912s and 582s by 5 gallon can 

anyway.



If we need the higher octane found in the original premium auto gas, we can add 

a little 100LL to boost octane without worrying about lead build up in our 

engines or in our engine oil from use of straight 100LL.



I know folks are doing this and some have talked about it on this web site. So 

back to the original question. Are there one or more contraindications from a 

fuel science or engine perspective? And if so what are the contraindications 

and how significant are they? Any technical types care to chime in?



Thanks

Kitfox N154K & PA 39 turbo N626NR

Bjones(at)dmv.com

443-480-1023



 

Quoting Frank Miles <f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net>:

in my engine oil.

[quote] 

 <f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearwire.net>

 

 One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another

 "Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we no

 longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!

 There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get

 someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to stock

 some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the

 distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in

 additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we

 don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are removed,

 we are screwed!

 

 Frank Miles

 Clarkston, Washington

 K-III w/ 582

 

 --

wingsdown(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

If you are concerned about water, just pour it through funnel buddy. ACS

sells them. They let the fuel through and will not let the water pass.

But really if you fly a lot it all becomes a major PITA not just to taxi

up to the pumps.



Rick



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

That's darn close to my sentiments... Bet we both get some flack over that!



Do you have any ideas how they are going to deliver ethanol fuel to

Labrador, Nunavut or Baffin?  Sending it in whiskey bottles works for me!



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

I will mention one reason to not do it.  Safety.



There will be some water left in the gas phase.  Just like the water phase

is contaminated with gas.  You will not get it ALL out.  The risk then is

that you will get further phase separation at lower temperatures (like maybe

while you are flying?).  Then you run the risk of unwanted silence while up

there.  All this assumes that you are really good and don't accidentally get

some of the water phase in your tank.



One way to protect against this is to add some alcohol to your fuel to keep

the water from separating out.  



Randy

--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

You are correct. It is my understanding that the distributors do have

ethanol free fuel and it is mixed at that point (closest point of sale) and

they are paid handsomely to do so. It is then shipped to the point of sale.

In our case service stations, convenience stores and so on. The point of

sale people do not have sufficient storage and handling for another fuel. I

was told that I could purchase a tanker, 10,000 gallons, but would have to

come up with my own storage and handling facilities. Now, that is something

that I am going to do, right!



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

First... doing what you suggest has been done by at least one boater in NY.

The hull of his boat, which had integral tanks was being eaten by ethanol

gas left in the tank(boat).  Because non eth contaminated fuel was not

available to him he started "washing" his fuel before putting it into his

boat and didn't have any more problems.



Doing this is hardly convenient.  You have to have a tank designed to allow

the water to separate and also be able to remove the gas without getting any

of the water into the gas.  This in not too difficult but consider this...

Gas is really a recipe that changes from manufacturer to manufacturer and

season to season.  You also have to ask what else can the water wash out of

the gas.  ( dirt or dust is definitely removed from gas by water, dye may

also be removed )



The settle out is supposed to be ethanol, and water...  There is an additive

to make the stuff unpalatable but that also is supposed to be non poisonous

and organic in nature...  In other words if you drop it in your favourite

stream you may find out what it is to drink like a fish.  The stuff the put

in the ethanol cannot be distilled out ...DARN!!!    but it is not toxic



There are many other non alcohol octane boosters available at local speed

shops I'd use one of those to boost octane if needed.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Since when does water mix with gas???  True, it may take time to settle out

just as when you fill a plane with 100LL directly from the pumps you should

always wait twenty minutes before checking the sumps... it can take that

long for the water to settle out.



The whole problem is water does mix with ethanol and if there is enough

water in the ethanol and the temperature drops sufficiently you can get a

phase separation..  What separates is the water and the alcohol sinks to the

bottom where it blocks your fuel pick up while perfectly useable gas floats

on top of the water just out of reach of your engine... Talk about adding

insult to injury!



If any one was going to try this I'd recommend first putting a procedure in

place.  That procedure should include a reasonable waiting period after

fuelling the plane and dripping the sumps.  Perhaps a 'fuel washing service

is something FBOs could offer so individual pilots wouldn't have to have

extra special tanks lying around a half dozen or so airfields.  They could

distil the ethanol effluent and use it to fuel barbecues... or something...

maybe sell it back to oil companies.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

---

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Since when does water mix with gas???  



Well Noel, Since the dawn of the ages I guess.



You can prove it to yourself.  Get some good dry gas with no alcohol in it.

Add a small amount of water - start with 0.10% and mix it a few minutes

until it all dissolves.  Add another 0.10% and mix.  Repeat until you get a

water layer that will NOT dissolve.  You will then know how much water will

dissolve in that particular gas at that temperature.  The amount will vary

with different gas because gasoline varies in composition.



Let's say you find out it is 0.50% water that dissolves in the gas.  You do

the math on how much water that is in a 20 gallon tank.  I assure you that

that is enough to stop an engine if the fuel gets colder as you are flying

and the water separates out.



It would simply be foolish (or fuelish) to put yourself at risk doing this.



Randy   

--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

It is not strictly true.  It is all a matter of degree.  Even pure

2,2,3-trimethylpentane - commonly called iso-octane can absorb some water.

But when you get more polar compounds like toluene and xylenes in the gas it

can absorb much more.   There is much effort to determine these values

accurately so the data can be used for computer modeling to design chemical

plants.  



Even plexiglass plastic absorbs water.  This is why Plexiglas in storm doors

bows in in the winter time.   



The detergents that you mention and other additives are another good reason

not to get in the cook it yourself business with fuels.  



Your point about the compression ratio for ethanol engines is a good one.

Engines with high enough compression ratios to get optimum power out of

ethanol would be destroyed quickly if fed gasoline.



Randy



--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

For the sake of trivia, that ship, I think, is The Caribou...  179 meters

(close to 587ft) long.  In most countries of the world this is what they

would describe as one mother of an icebreaker!  I've seen truckers pay big

money to have their rigs first in line to go out in seas like those in the

clip.  All guts no brains!



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

I'll give it a try but when I studied basic chemistry they told us oil or

gas and water would not mix without an additive like ethanol in the gas.  To

do the test I'll have to scare up a bottle of 100LL (no additives)



I wonder if I still have the skills to do decent titrations.

Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Espuny,



"Disponsibilty" your definition of the word? I did a search and came up

with;



 	  Quote: 	
		  > > We are searching for a high disponibility and open source solution

> > for web hosting

>

> I've never encountered the term "disponibility" before/  Google turns

> up references to it, but primarily in English texts written by

> non-English writers.



 I guessed disponible was the French word for available, and answered

 accordingly;-)


	


OK, but the *English* word "disponibility" means something closer to 

"flexibility" than to "availability".  (Check OED.)  I think we have a 

false cognate/borrowing here...



Frank

Clarkston, Washington, USA

--

f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Espuny,



I was not being critical. I like to learn new words but could not find that

in our dictionary. My wife and I always have one handy. I think that you do

very well with English and I appreciate your contribution to the site. Keep

it up. Do you informally use your last name?



Frank



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:20 am Post subject: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

2. Fuelling the cars you mentioned on ethanol would require taking the driver out an flogging him/her severely with a wet codfish! J  

   

3. hydrated ethanol would be easier to make and handle than ethanol which is virtually water free at the refinery.  Water is the enemy and it is the reason I wouldn't use it in an aircraft engine.  

   

4. we are still using the old Wheaton bridge resistance float type gas gauges in our cars.  From the sounds of things you are using a capacitance type volume indicator similar to what is used on larger planes.  That would be a great advancement.  Not only do you get faster readings but you get them without the use of moving parts...  One less part to wear out in the fuel tank  

   

5. I live in Newfoundland,  an island in the North Atlantic.  We don't have a commercial corn crop here.  Neither do we have a way to get ethanol here in anything larger than a keg ( the way I like to get it!)  So the chances we will ever see E anything here is remote.  Shippers don't want to put it in their ships and it has to be added at the distribution point.  The only way that could be done is by shipping it in here as pure ethanol in specially built sealed trucks.  Even then I doubt quantities would be sufficient to make E10 for all our gas.  I have seen a few new minivans sporting the flex fuel badges but they have to be fuelled with straight gasoline.  E85 or E100 will probably turn up here ten minutes after you know where freezes over.  In the mean time we will see exactly how flex those vehicles really are by how well they handle the gasoline.  

   

Rotax and Jabiru are much higher technology than the Lycoming and Continental engines.  They were designed to TBO at close to double the time on the older engines.   The presence of lead will add all the problems the older engines had.  As for ethanol use the engines would want to have the heads planed a few thousandths or special pistons to increase the CR and then all the seals may need to be changed.  Rotax and Jab won't do that at this time because there are just too many countries where good MOGAS is available.  

   

Noel  

   

       [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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