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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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 Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
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Although delivering a little more power, ethanol (100%) is proven to give about 30% less mileage than gas(100%). At 10% ethanol in a properly set up engine, you should lose just 3% .
Espuny
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: sexta-feira, 15 de agosto de 2008 22:41
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Dave:
Just today a guy who recently moved here form southern Ontario mentioned to me he is getting a lot better fuel mileage in his pickup truck than he did in Ontario... Just one of the pleasant side effects of not having ethanol in the gas!
As for ethanol vs. 100 LL I think I'd opt for the ethanol or even try washing out the eth.
Mr. Harper was here the past two days, no one asked him how to get his ethanol here or what the penalty is for non-compliance. I wonder if it was an option to buy ethanol laced gas if it would sell... my bet is it would not... Not even for cars.
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C8FF2E.23BAC3C0[/img]
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 floats
[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
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Hi, Noel.
I'll try to tell you what I know. In my country the common cityzen knows how a flex engine works, because it's the final point of a long evolution that affected any driver.
Well, I just don't know if the "flex" tech you have inside USA is the same we have here, but I can say that all modern auto techs comes from the evolution of 1970's brazilian Proalcool, a government financed sugar cane reserch and production system (with money loaned from your countries, of course). Nowadays all investments are private except for Petrobras that's a state controlled open capital company.
First there were cars for hidrated ethanol or gas, separetely, no one could run on blends. Alchool cars could not be fueled with gas, for their compression rate was higer and could be damaged, but many people added some gas to alchool for a better start in cold mornings, and there was a gas bottle and a little pump to help at cold starts. Gas cars, if fueled with alchool worked as a heart having a stroke, or simply did not work.
The first alchool cars' carburetors looked like an old boat hull, full of deposits and corrosion. So were mufflers , pumps and other. First, they niquel plated them, and after some years, developed new materials that could resist the contact with alchool itself.
A flex car means that the engine has a higer compression to allow ethanol explosion, while more resistant to bear gas explosion at higher CR, plus many sensors and a computerized injection system and all parts ethanol resistant. Some of the sensors analyse the exaust gas and can determine the fuel composition. There's still a plus little gas tank and a temp sensor; if temperature outside is low and sensors find too much alchool in fuel composition, a pump adds some gas to the mixture to a smoother start. That's all, and not too different from your gas cars. They're trusty and last a lot, as any gas car. There's no bad smell, no different sounds, just the convenience of fuelling the way you want. It's even not more expensive and the fuel is cheaper, to compensate less mileage.
Some chemicals are added to ethanol and eth-gas, so it's not a good idea to deliver it on whiskey bottles, as someone wrote. The engine oil remain yellow by the change time, while gas cars turns it into black, and escape gases are less dangerous, but there's more water expelled from the scape ; the water that is added to ethanol in the distillery and the one that results from combustion (fuel+O2=H20+CO2). There are less deposits because of more complete burn and absence of some gas components (that's all I know about it). And I dont have information about cleaning previous burnt gas deposits,sorry.
No need added mantainance, also.
A few years ago, french government analyzed an eth car and determined that the gases could affect the psych, like making people laugh (it's not a joke).
Believe-me. I love cars, I spend too much on them, and I hated the alchool ones (I used to call them "bombs"), but I love the "flexes". It's great now that we have all these techs. It's no BS and no political conspiration.
Talking of power, a flex Civic Si , a GM S10 or any other car, is guaranteed by the factory to have power increased a little when fueled with ethanol. We confirm this on private dynamometers at the garages everytime someone goes to a tune.
But never try to fuel a '67 Mustang with ethanol, or your friend's V8. The 602 is strong and may burn some eth, but it'll never be the same. Nor the B&W carbs .
When I said 30% less mileage , I was comparing uses of both fuels in a flex car, or cars specific for each fuel. That's true. Here, you find tables to compare costs of fuels considering mileage and decide what to buy at the pumps everywhere, on newspapers, auto magazines, etc. They all use the 30% rule. I suppose your friend's car is experiencing little mileage because it was not meant to use ethanol, not built and not tuned to. I have a flex pickup and it's better than my last diesel one.
But, I repeat, in my opinion all these modifications and more have to be done to planes before they use ethanol, or they'll work as a heart on stroke too. And I say "more" because there are more variables inside a flying plane than in a car, like quick pressure changes, temperature, inertia, vibration, moisture, volume and shape of tanks, etc .
Let's open our minds and wait. It's destiny. Oil will become rare and expensive, biofuels will take the world. Flex planes will be fine someday.
By now, only good hi-oct eth-free gas.
Espuny
I talk too much...someone, please, stop me!
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: sábado, 16 de agosto de 2008 00:26
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
That is assuming the engine has had all the little goodies like increasing the CR to make it burn ethanol most efficiently. With low CR engines with mapping for gasoline you can easily reduce your mileage by close to 40 %. The guy I was talking to said his mileage for a tank of fuel went from 500Km/tank to over 600km.tank. That is an increase of mileage of better than 20%. His pickup is a low CR high displacement V8.
In terms of BTU ethanol is supposed to have about 67% the power of gasoline per unit volume. In other words to get 67% of the mileage you would have to retune or rebuild the engine specifically to burn ethanol efficiently. If you do this your engine will no longer burn gasoline efficiently.
Here is a small raft of questions...
*What exactly do U.S. car makers mean when they say their cars are flex fuel??
*Do these vehicles have variable CR for different mixes of fuel or do they only have seals that ethanol won’t eat out in a few months?
*Do they have variable fuel mapping for different mixes of fuel?
*Do they have variable controls on turbo charging waste gates?
*Is the whole idea of Flex Fuel just a way of recognizing that the governments of both out lands are sending us down a slippery slope?
*Is the Idea of “Flex Fuel” vehicles totally hype because there is not one iota difference in the engines made today and what was made two years ago?
*Just how do these machines determine the mix of the fuel it’s being fed? I know one method (Capacitance) but I expect it would be expensive to incorporate in a car or truck.
Using the occasional tank of ethanol will no doubt clean out the top end of your engine...
*What does it do with the dirt it cleans out???
*What does it do to the top end of your engine is there is no dirt present?
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:03 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Although delivering a little more power, ethanol (100%) is proven to give about 30% less mileage than gas(100%). At 10% ethanol in a properly set up engine, you should lose just 3% .
Espuny
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
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Lowell,
What you say really makes sense to me and look obvious if comparing just the
calorific power of two fuels, but not considering the way their molecular
energy will be transformed to cinetic.
First, I'm not an engine or fuel specialist, so, as you can see I don't
understand perfectly every aspect of the subject, and I wish you forgive me
if I say any BS.
Maybe (I say maybe) it's because ethanol is harder to explode and you have
to set the engine like a supercharged one just to make it burn, but, once
it's burnt, THE ENGINE delivers more power. Because if you try to set it up
for less consumption (not leaner, but few mixture), it simply will not work.
And remember the higer CR.
I'm not saying ethanol has a high calorific power, I don't know. I'm
affirming that ethanol engines have a little more power, and also flex
engines fueled with ethanol, both cases setted up for optimal comsumption.
Fact is that ethanol has a higer power than gas on present engines, and
worse mileage.
Thats what we experience everyday, confirming what the cientists say. And
it's obvious that if they could build a better alchool system, they'd do it
due to all commercial interests we all know.
I will ask a local engeneer that may have the answer ready to satisfy you
and me.
Espuny
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Lowell Fitt
Enviada em: sábado, 16 de agosto de 2008 10:48
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Francisco,
Please explain how ethanol delivers more power and does less work. This
sounds like a major contradiction.
Lowell
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
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Noel,
You mention adding gas to the eth to make cars easier to start. As you know the cars get harder to start as the temperature drops... At various times of the year the temperature really plummets to the point where I used to put a small drop of gas in my Diesel car to keep the fuel from gelling.
Old, first only-alchool cars were so. Flex cars have a little atank and a pump to add gas directly to intake only on starts when it's cold. We don't have snow in Brazil, so I don't know if thei're gonna add something to prevent it from freezing in Canada.
What you described is a vehicle that is built specifically to burn ethanol.... To be a true Flex vehicle it would have to have variable compression ratio, multi fuel injection mapping and of course multi fuel ignition timing.
We are not in north Mexico. Flex cars in Brazil have computerized fuel injection and ignition time that varies while fuel composition change. The compression ratio is higer, but not variable. If you doubt, ask GM, Ford, Honda, Fiat, Vokswagen, Peugeot, Renault and the suppliers Magnetti Marelli and Bosch.
The problem is when they decide to add ethanol to gas and you have all your gas cars, as happened here 30 years ago. Then we had carburators, everybody had to retune, and we suffered with corroded parts. I don't know what would happen if everybody had only injected gas engines by that time, as you have now. I think things are not good in this case. And you'll see how much time an unprepared exhaust system lasts since you fuel with eth gas.
As I have mentioned before in your country ethanol is made from surplus In Canada and the U.S. ethanol production displaces food production so the end effect is increased inflation.
The countries may stop from using corn to produce ethanol and start importing sugar cane ethanol, cheaper and less polluter than oil. Isn't oil imported too ? Finances and enviroment will thank. But they need to change cars before. Doesn't it make sense?
And I don't understand why North America does not explore undersea oil resources to keep supplying god gas at good prices for its people while they progressively and slowly change to renewable biofuels. There's much oil under there just waiting to be caught, we all know.
Diesel engines which will work wonderfully on ethanol will only do so until the high pressure injection pumps bite the dust. Diesel fuel lubricates the pumps...Ethanol will tear the stuffings out of them!
Ethanol is not for diesel cycle engines. For those, the biodiesel is being road tested and brushed up.
What is needed is a standard for the fuel, the way it is handled and the way it is used to be safe. A little moisture in the fuel on an icing day can cause excessive icing and on hot days may cause vapour lock. Closed, pressurized, preferably with nitrogen, systems are the only way to go.
I agree with you. Fuels have to be standard an named, people must know and trust it composition and government must check often the large companies and street dealers.
I really don't know what would happen to our local gas and ethanol if we had a colder weather but I can say that the fuel behaves quite fine in a very hot country as ours. I don't know the solution, but I agree that you have serious reasons to be worried.
I've been upset many times since the beginning of local alchool program until they developed the flex. Now I'm very satisfied and I think you have a hard way ahead, but things will be OK for you too.
I hope you can convince Chevron or BP to keep selling pure gas for all your planes untill factories start to deliver something specifically developed for the new fuels.
Since ethanol was proved to be a good solution in Brazil, the global car industry began a race to build good eth cars.
I believe that aviation industries are doing the same now. Let's wait .
Espuny
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:56 am Post subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
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Hi, Noel ,
I really don’t think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I’d be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts.
There's a lot of water and the first thing we notice long ago was early exhaust corrosion.
I realize the engines probably don’t have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units.
You're right, but it works very well.
The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel.
They have it. I told you twice.
I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation.
Try one. I drive my flex GM pickup everyday. It's fine.
Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest.
Maybe, but consummers make high pressure on quality levels and performance. The factories research a lot because there's too much competition.
As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can’t say I’d blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I’ve said it several times before and I’ll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn’t the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found.
The best present alternative is always one we do have available. Better a non-perfect reality than a perfect dream never come true.
I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere??
You're right again. There's too much CO2 resulting from fermentation and it goes into the air. And I don't believe the're gonna compress it into cylinders and send it to Coca-Cola.
You don’t have tens of millions of cars and you don’t have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I’d certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I’d think long and hard before putting it in my plane.
We have about 30.000.000 running cars and considering trucks and other, the number goes to 50.000.000 (source is annual license taxes paid at each state).
Ethanol is truck-transported for several thousand miles, as gas is, because production is concentrated in a wide but limited area today. That's why costs vary so much inside my country.
There are also tank ships exporting our ethanol with no problems.
I wouldn't put it in my plane too. Not now.
Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking.
Same problem happend to wood made methanol fueled racing cars. They can add something to the fuel that makes flames visible if necessary, as they did in USA.
I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won’t last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few.
Our engines lasts very long. A garage owner was telling me that he is worried about the decrease of demand because today's cars don't have to be fixed so often..
Things are never perfect, and the whole society is always evolving.
People use to say that if we are always waiting for perfection we'll have nothing to enjoy.
Let's really find a practic way to fuel our planes now without major costs increase or parts to be changed.
What I really want to Know by now is which are the AVGAS engines possibilities for powering a Kitfox. There are few true Kitfox here and there's a copy they call "Kitfox Águia" (Kitfox Hawk) but I want an original. I've found two, but there were problems and didn't buy it. And know I'm affraid because almost 100% of Kitfox planes here are Rotax powered and we have this question about ethanol gas and AVGAS. Our auto gas may contain 25% ethanol ! Some people say AVGAS is not for Rotax (factory did not answer me yet).
So I think the way is to keep flying the Piper and purchase a Super Sport kit and prepare it to a certified AVGAS engine, if possible.
I'll write to Kitfox , but personnal experience is always more valuable. So, If anyone is flying a plane setted-up this way, I'd appreciate any advice.
Espuny
Espuny
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
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No. First sensors were impedance meters inside the tank. It was accurate, but took a long time for the reading and the engine sometimes had to run several minutes on a wrong mixture and timing set.
Now there's a sensor integrated to float that tells the ECM that volume has changed in a sudden, so ECM uses lambda sound (is it right??) reading to determine a new fuel standard for real time mixture setup and timing setup because changes on fuel composition are predictable by exhaust gas analysis (as you have just two fuels blended and knows how each one behaves). I think that realtime processing would take too much time , so the ECM just worries about it when you add some fuel to the tank. But ECM will still be correcting the injection behaviour in real time for other reasons, as atmospheric pressure, as it does in gas injected engines. Note that first ECM has to know what's the fuel to be able to make further minor corrections.
I extracted this information from a technical text, signed by an automotive engineer and I didn't know it two days ago..
It's not perfect, but remember how we had 64 KB memory PCs in the late 80's and how things evolve quickly in electronic market. And no one is gonna fill the tank while driving.
Or, is anyone going to do that just to experience a bug ? 
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 14:03
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Espuny
You make good points...
Is the fuel quality sensor integrated into your fuel gauge? I find that point most interesting.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:26 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Hi, Noel ,
I really don’t think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I’d be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts.
There's a lot of water and the first thing we notice long ago was early exhaust corrosion.
I realize the engines probably don’t have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units.
You're right, but it works very well.
The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel.
They have it. I told you twice.
I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation.
Try one. I drive my flex GM pickup everyday. It's fine.
Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest.
Maybe, but consummers make high pressure on quality levels and performance. The factories research a lot because there's too much competition.
As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can’t say I’d blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I’ve said it several times before and I’ll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn’t the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found.
The best present alternative is always one we do have available. Better a non-perfect reality than a perfect dream never come true.
I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere??
You're right again. There's too much CO2 resulting from fermentation and it goes into the air. And I don't believe the're gonna compress it into cylinders and send it to Coca-Cola.
You don’t have tens of millions of cars and you don’t have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I’d certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I’d think long and hard before putting it in my plane.
We have about 30.000.000 running cars and considering trucks and other, the number goes to 50.000.000 (source is annual license taxes paid at each state).
Ethanol is truck-transported for several thousand miles, as gas is, because production is concentrated in a wide but limited area today. That's why costs vary so much inside my country.
There are also tank ships exporting our ethanol with no problems.
I wouldn't put it in my plane too. Not now.
Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking.
Same problem happend to wood made methanol fueled racing cars. They can add something to the fuel that makes flames visible if necessary, as they did in USA.
I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won’t last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few.
Our engines lasts very long. A garage owner was telling me that he is worried about the decrease of demand because today's cars don't have to be fixed so often..
Things are never perfect, and the whole society is always evolving.
People use to say that if we are always waiting for perfection we'll have nothing to enjoy.
Let's really find a practic way to fuel our planes now without major costs increase or parts to be changed.
What I really want to Know by now is which are the AVGAS engines possibilities for powering a Kitfox. There are few true Kitfox here and there's a copy they call "Kitfox Águia" (Kitfox Hawk) but I want an original. I've found two, but there were problems and didn't buy it. And know I'm affraid because almost 100% of Kitfox planes here are Rotax powered and we have this question about ethanol gas and AVGAS. Our auto gas may contain 25% ethanol ! Some people say AVGAS is not for Rotax (factory did not answer me yet).
So I think the way is to keep flying the Piper and purchase a Super Sport kit and prepare it to a certified AVGAS engine, if possible.
I'll write to Kitfox , but personnal experience is always more valuable. So, If anyone is flying a plane setted-up this way, I'd appreciate any advice.
Espuny
Espuny
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espuny(at)terra.com.br
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
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I had to go to 4 GB in my Dell to stop reading Vista's window "Your computer ran out of memory. Close..." everyday.
Software needs grow faster than hardware resources.
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Dave
Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 22:05
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Limited sales was not a requirement. Every McDonalds used a TRS-80 for a long time running that green screen order tracking.
Do not archive
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: Noel Loveys (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:31 PM
Subject: RE: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Fuelling on the move... Sounds like something best left to an air force.
64 KB of memory is enough if you are only doing one job. I think modern computers use most of their memory for Graphic user interface My first computer, a TRS 80, only had 32 Kb of memory and I used it as a cash register for several years. Ok I had very limited sales.
Thanks for the info.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:23 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
No. First sensors were impedance meters inside the tank. It was accurate, but took a long time for the reading and the engine sometimes had to run several minutes on a wrong mixture and timing set.
Now there's a sensor integrated to float that tells the ECM that volume has changed in a sudden, so ECM uses lambda sound (is it right??) reading to determine a new fuel standard for real time mixture setup and timing setup because changes on fuel composition are predictable by exhaust gas analysis (as you have just two fuels blended and knows how each one behaves). I think that realtime processing would take too much time , so the ECM just worries about it when you add some fuel to the tank. But ECM will still be correcting the injection behaviour in real time for other reasons, as atmospheric pressure, as it does in gas injected engines. Note that first ECM has to know what's the fuel to be able to make further minor corrections.
I extracted this information from a technical text, signed by an automotive engineer and I didn't know it two days ago..
It's not perfect, but remember how we had 64 KB memory PCs in the late 80's and how things evolve quickly in electronic market. And no one is gonna fill the tank while driving.
Or, is anyone going to do that just to experience a bug ?
De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 14:03
Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Espuny
You make good points...
Is the fuel quality sensor integrated into your fuel gauge? I find that point most interesting.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:26 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Hi, Noel ,
I really don’t think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I’d be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts.
There's a lot of water and the first thing we notice long ago was early exhaust corrosion.
I realize the engines probably don’t have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units.
You're right, but it works very well.
The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel.
They have it. I told you twice.
I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation.
Try one. I drive my flex GM pickup everyday. It's fine.
Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest.
Maybe, but consummers make high pressure on quality levels and performance. The factories research a lot because there's too much competition.
As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can’t say I’d blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I’ve said it several times before and I’ll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn’t the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found.
The best present alternative is always one we do have available. Better a non-perfect reality than a perfect dream never come true.
I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere??
You're right again. There's too much CO2 resulting from fermentation and it goes into the air. And I don't believe the're gonna compress it into cylinders and send it to Coca-Cola.
You don’t have tens of millions of cars and you don’t have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I’d certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I’d think long and hard before putting it in my plane.
We have about 30.000.000 running cars and considering trucks and other, the number goes to 50.000.000 (source is annual license taxes paid at each state).
Ethanol is truck-transported for several thousand miles, as gas is, because production is concentrated in a wide but limited area today. That's why costs vary so much inside my country.
There are also tank ships exporting our ethanol with no problems.
I wouldn't put it in my plane too. Not now.
Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking.
Same problem happend to wood made methanol fueled racing cars. They can add something to the fuel that makes flames visible if necessary, as they did in USA.
I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won’t last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few.
Our engines lasts very long. A garage owner was telling me that he is worried about the decrease of demand because today's cars don't have to be fixed so often..
Things are never perfect, and the whole society is always evolving.
People use to say that if we are always waiting for perfection we'll have nothing to enjoy.
Let's really find a practic way to fuel our planes now without major costs increase or parts to be changed.
What I really want to Know by now is which are the AVGAS engines possibilities for powering a Kitfox. There are few true Kitfox here and there's a copy they call "Kitfox Águia" (Kitfox Hawk) but I want an original. I've found two, but there were problems and didn't buy it. And know I'm affraid because almost 100% of Kitfox planes here are Rotax powered and we have this question about ethanol gas and AVGAS. Our auto gas may contain 25% ethanol ! Some people say AVGAS is not for Rotax (factory did not answer me yet).
So I think the way is to keep flying the Piper and purchase a Super Sport kit and prepare it to a certified AVGAS engine, if possible.
I'll write to Kitfox , but personnal experience is always more valuable. So, If anyone is flying a plane setted-up this way, I'd appreciate any advice.
Espuny
Espuny
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