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facts from the horses mouth:

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EMAproducts(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: facts from the horses mouth:

Jay Bannister,

 I hope all of the Monday morning quarterbacking will cease now that you  have written the story of your accident.  You are to be commended in  handling an emergency successfully.  I know everybody has their  idea on one airplane did this and they must remember all homebuilts are  different.  35 years ago I was asked to give dual to a new aircraft owner,  a popular homebuilt aircraft with excellent flying reports.  I had  flown another one and was very happy with the way it flew.  However this  one was another story, just as it touched the runway elevator and rudder  controls became limp, and didn't do anything.  With power all was fine, at  altitude all stalls were very docile etc.  It was three tries before  we actually landed, An aerodynamics engineer from Douglas aircraft looked at it  after we had a long conversation.  The wing root farings were larger &  modified, which totally blocked out elevator control in ground effect, and the  canopy was a little sharper over the top (no preformed stuff in those days) and  creating a stall over the canopy which messed up the rudder.  New wing rood  farings and new canopy ~ the aircraft flew like originals, fine.  All of  our homebuilt aircraft fly differently, even factory models take tweaking during  test flying.  It does not surprise me at all that one aircraft behaves one  way at one speed, another differently at a high speed.  After they have  been there then they are qualified to make comments.  Not intended to flame  anyone, just to give credit to Jay for a job well done, every plane is  different.          Again Jay, Well done Job!!

 Elbie Mendenhall

CFI 1513655 since 1962; ASMEL, A&I 

ATP  CE-500, B-737, DC-9

48 years of flying both work & play

EAA 38308 EAA  Flight Advisor





Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

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jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: facts from the horses mouth:

Elbie,



I sincerely appreciate your comments.  However, this airplane was not a 

homebuilt.  It was an AMD factory built, certified Zodiac 601XLi, also 

certified for flight in instrument conditions.  But, yes I agree, all 

aircraft are different, whether homebuilt or certified.  That is why 

each airplane is test flown before it leaves the factory.



My airplane was first flown by a test pilot from IndUS Aviation, 

manufacturers of the Thorpedo.  Before he flew it, he went through his 

typical, extensive inspection of the airplane.  That took a little over 

two hours.  He did a static run-up.  Then we tied the airplane down in 

a nose high climb attitude and he did a static run-up to verify fuel 

flow in that attitude.  Only then did he take to taxi testing.  He 

probably taxied the runway a dozen times.  About a half a dozen times, 

he performed "crow hops" and verified the controllability of the 

airplane while airborne.  After this extended run time, the CHTs 

reached the max. I had set.  We decided it wasn't prudent to do a full 

flight test under those conditions. That's the very nature of test 

flying - to discover glitches before they can hurt anyone.



  I'm guessing that the AMD factory never tested their airplane with the 

canopy un-latched; since I proved that it is not fully controllable in 

that condition. That airplane definitely should have some sort of 

fail-safe apparatus to prevent that

 ever happening again.



Thanks again - Jay

--

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notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: facts from the horses mouth:

Hey,  I know Elbie.

He conducted my CFI renewal class.

Elbie knows!



SW

---

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: facts from the horses mouth:

Hi Jay and Elbie,



I'm fascinated by the comment regarding home built vs. factory (AMD) built.



I don't know how many Xls AMD has built, but I suspect it is a 

relatively low number.  I wonder how much their products resemble 

hand built planes as opposed to heavily tooled factory production products.



I suspect the truth is that AMD is similar in many ways to a home 

builder but the people doing the building do it for (relatively low?) 

wages rather than out of love.  Unlike home builders, the factory 

folks know their rear end will never fly in the plane they are building.



One thing we all, including AMD, share is the fact that the XL's 

designer retired to France a few years ago.



Paul

XL getting close

do not archive

At 11:32 AM 8/18/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Elbie,



I sincerely appreciate your comments.  However, this airplane was 

not a homebuilt.  It was an AMD factory built, certified Zodiac 

601XLi, also certified for flight in instrument conditions.  But, 

yes I agree, all aircraft are different, whether homebuilt or 

certified.  That is why each airplane is test flown before it leaves 

the factory.

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bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: facts from the horses mouth:

I think a minor modification to the latching system allowing each hook  

to latch independently would add some redundancy and could prevent a  

similar incident in the future. All it would take is a spring for each  

hook and a slotted hole in each linkage. They would latch  

independently but still unlatch together when the handle is raised.  

With the current design, if one hook fails to latch for some reason,  

neither will fully latch because they are rigidly connected together.



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I'm guessing that the AMD factory never tested their airplane with  

 the canopy un-latched; since I proved that it is not fully  

 controllable in that condition. That airplane definitely should have  

 some sort of fail-safe apparatus to prevent that

 ever happening again.


	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

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_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: facts from the horses mouth:

On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 02:32:42PM -0400, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    I'm guessing that the AMD factory never tested their airplane with the 

 canopy un-latched;


	


This is not correct. I was told that that was part of the initial

certification flight testing.



 	  Quote: 	
		   since I proved that it is not fully controllable in that condition.


	


I can't explain why you were not able to control it.



 	  Quote: 	
		   That airplane definitely should have some sort of fail-safe apparatus to

 prevent that ever happening again.


	


I agree, and am thinking about ways to ensure just that.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: facts from the horses mouth:

On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 12:40:37PM -0700, Paul Mulwitz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I don't know how many Xls AMD has built, but I suspect it is a 

 relatively low number.  I wonder how much their products resemble 

 hand built planes as opposed to heavily tooled factory production products.


	


It's somewhere in the close neighborhood of 60. Mine is s/n 60, though

that's not the exact production order because they assign the serial number

when the slot is reserved with a down payment and keep it when the order is

changed for whatever reason. I do know, however, that mine is the last XLi

and one of the last two XLs AMD built, as the next two airframe kits they

got were 650s. I also know that there is an s/n 68, and it was completed and

sitting ont he floor awaiting delivery when I arrived to pick mine up.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I suspect the truth is that AMD is similar in many ways to a home 

 builder but the people doing the building do it for (relatively low?) 

 wages rather than out of love.  Unlike home builders, the factory 

 folks know their rear end will never fly in the plane they are building.


	


AMD buys kits from Zenair in Canada; I think they're equivalent to

quick-build kits, but they may be even more complete. They get the fuselage,

wings, elevator, and rudder assembled; they do final assembly and all

systems installation.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

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_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: facts from the horses mouth:

One quick and dirty way to make sure the canopy doesn't pop open in flight  is to go to Lowe's or home depot and buy those chain latches they used to put on  doors so they would only open a few inches so you could peek thru the crack.  Close the canopy and slide the chain into the holder that is mounted up and down  instead of sideways like it would be on a door and if it pops open it can only  go a few inches.

  

 On another note

  

 I was visiting AMD and looked at the new canopy design and latch system and  asked how many they had flown like that and they said non and were worried about  the turtle deck being cut away not being strong enough to support the O 200 and  then I asked if it was sold yet and he replied yes. My jaw dropped at that point  and it makes me wonder if Chris really knows of these changes or if they are  being approved by someone else. How in the world do you sell a person an  aircraft if you are unsure of it's safety. Only time will tell. Am I  missing something here? Has this new improved design been tested and flown  somewhere else? I am doing the split canopy but I am not changing the turtle  deck. They said the only reason for the turtle deck to have been cut away was  for the BRS and that might be a good thing. I am also changing to the new style  latch system but my own design based on the Van's RV's and when you latch one of  those they don't come open.

  

 Jeff



It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

  [quote][b]

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amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: facts from the horses mouth:

Paul,



AMD makes a fine aircraft.  Ive flown them and they are well built by well skilled people.  To say because they are low wage,(compared to what I don't know, since a good job is a job you enjoy) results in they do a sub par job, is short sighted, and a little Hubris.  Remember how the FAA and true pilots see a cause of a crash,  it is absolutely the Pilot's job of determining that a plane is flight worthy.  SO if the canopy did not latch, and the pilot bitched about it but took it up any way, pilots error, not some "low wage" employee who takes pride in the work they do.  Its bulls---t to always blame some guy down stream.

Yea, some homebuilts may spend more elbow grease on a plane than the factory, the truth is we are building becuase we are all in a midlife crisis and cause it hit our "bucket list".  A factory builds the plane for profit.  Leave it at that. 



Juan



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