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100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
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Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Note that I've changed the Subject line slightly.  It's amazing how easily 

misinformation can be spread on the Internet.  It's so easy for someone who 

is a good writer to sit down at their keyboard and write whatever they want 

without any basis to it and if they post it to the right places and people, 

it can spread like a prairie fire on a dry, windy day and be very difficult 

to stop.

I'm really baffled by all this anti-100LL talk.  Lubricate valves?  Back in 

the 20s and 30s or so when engineers like Charles Kettering (Boss Kett) were 

trying to coax more HP out of auto engines they found that they could 

achieve significantly more power by increasing the compression ratio.  The 

problem with that was that it caused severe detonation which was destroying 

engines.  Somewhere along the line they found that by adding lead to the mix 

which raised the octane level they could successfully raise the compression 

level, thereby increasing HP.   Valve lubrication was not the reason it was 

developed, IIRC.

As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine, not true.  As I recall, 

there was only one engine that was affected by this and that was one of the 

versions of the IO540.  It was found in that particular engine that when 

100LL was used coupled with Shell 100 percent synthetic that the lead 

deposits would not stay in suspension and resulted in some bearing problems. 

This caused massive lawsuits (expensive repairs), mostly aimed at Shell who 

pulled their 100 percent synthetic off the market, and the normal resulting 

anecdotal hysteria resulted that follows this sort of thing.  Shortly, it 

became dangerous to use 100LL in your airplane regardless what engine it had 

in it.

Soon, to be on the safe side, some engine manufacturers recommended that 

synthetic oil not be used with their engines that used 100LL or to add lead 

dispersants.  "Not recommended" is not the same as "Prohibited".  Just 

because they don't recommend it doesn't mean that the fuel is necessarily 

bad for the engine.

The Rotax 912 and many other engines were designed from the ground up to run 

on unleaded gasoline so 100LL is not necessary.  However, this ethanol scare 

has people running for other options, mostly 100LL which is about the only 

other one available.  Is it bad for the engine?  I doubt it.  Probably the 

worst thing is for your wallet.  Is ethanol bad for your engine?  None of us 

know for sure yet whether it is or not, but I suspect that we're going to be 

stuck with it.

My opinion, which is worth what you pay for it, is if you feel you need to 

spend the extra money on 100LL, go ahead and use it.  If you want to use it 

exclusively, as a precaution, just don't use it with pure synthetic oil. 

Use a blend.  Also, be very careful of what you read here on the Internet. 

Take all of it with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research 

before you consider anything as gospel.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Lead is used to lubricate the valves on the archaric aircraft engines.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Fox5Flyer,



Despite your well written, and very elegant article, you are just plain wrong Joseph whne you say



" As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine, not true. "



You are mixing up your facts between certified aircraft engines which need the lead in 100LL and Rotax 912 engines which are harmed by lead.  The Rotax 912 was designed for unleaded fuel, and it is far better to run unleaded gas in it.   



The Rotax 912 will tolerate 100 LL, but the maintenance schedule is doubled, oil changes and spark plugs have to be changed twice as often.  Also the synthetic oil which is vastly superior to dinosaur oil is can not be used in the Rotax when 100LL is used.  There was also a service letter about lead buildup causing spalling on the gears due to lead buildup.  These are not facts that someone is posting as " Misinformation ", this comes straight from the Rotax maintenance manual.



A friend of mine has over 3000 hours operating Rotax 912-s, and he changes his oil to non synthetic and uses 100LL for cross country, as there is no other option.  He reports hard lead deposits in his oil tank after using 100 LL for 50 hours or so.  It is well known that 100LL will form nasty lead deposits in the Rotax 912 series engines.   Synthetic oil is vastly superior to non synthetic, having to use non synthetic oil will shorten the life of the Rotax 912 over time.



Click the following link to Read the 100LL comments from Rotax Service.com :



http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed4.htm



There are mountains of evidence out there documenting the problems with 100 LL and the rotax 912 engines.  This is not paranoia or something someone made up, it is very real.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Deke  & Mike , 



2 great informative posts. 

100 LL  gumming up fuel systems ?  No i think that it has been used to NOT gum up fuel systems. I rarely get any issues with gumming of fuel systems. 



As far as 100 LL, I think it might be more consistent in the brewing of it than MOGAS . That being said Mogas or marina gas works for me pretty decent. 

And Deke   >>  	  Quote: 	
		   Also, be very careful of what you read here on the Internet. 

Take all of it with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research 

before you consider anything as gospel. 	




This is why i respond with movies to show you that I put behind what i say with a video.  As far as Ethanol gas ---- I fly 250 to 300 a year and all with ethanol gas or what ever the heck is at the pumps.  AVGAS I think i burned 4 gals a few years ago cause a guy wanted to dump a gerry cans he had in his floats so I just ran it through a funnel and flew away

_________________
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http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
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thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

A couple of months ago C I bought a wrecked Rans for the 912 engine that was on it.  The hour meter read 86 hrs.  I pulled the engine apart to have a look in side C as it had sat for 6 years.  All looked fine inside C but there was a buildup in the combustion chambers (head and top of piston) of a yellowish compound.  It was perhaps 1/32" thick.  When I talked to the tech advisor at Leading Edge Air Foils C he said it was lead buildup from running avgas.  On the pluss side for the avgas though C one wing tank had about 2 1/2 gallons of avgas in it and to get rid of it C I ran it through my mower with no problem.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building C Avids B and MK IV flying C  MN

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

 From: orcabonita(at)hotmail.com

 Date: Fri C 15 Aug 2008 07:44:16 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>

 Fox5Flyer C

 Despite your well written C and very elegant article C you are just plain wrong Joseph whne you say

 " As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine C not true. "

 You are mixing up your facts between certified aircraft engines which need the lead in 100LL and Rotax 912 engines which are harmed by lead. The Rotax 912 was designed for unleaded fuel C and it is far better to run unleaded gas in it. 

 The Rotax 912 will tolerate 100 LL C but the maintenance schedule is doubled C oil changes and spark plugs have to be changed twice as often. Also the synthetic oil which is vastly superior to dinosaur oil is can not be used in the Rotax when 100LL is used. There was also a service letter about lead buildup causing spalling on the gears due to lead buildup. These are not facts that someone is posting as " Misinformation " C this comes straight from the Rotax maintenance manual.

 A friend of mine has over 3000 hours operating Rotax 912-s C and he changes his oil to non synthetic and uses 100LL for cross country C as there is no other option. He reports hard lead deposits in his oil tank after using 100 LL for 50 hours or so. It is well known that 100LL will form nasty lead deposits in the Rotax 912 series engines. Synthetic oil is vastly superior to non synthetic C having to use non synthetic oil will shorten the life of the Rotax 912 over time.

 Click the following link to Read the 100LL comments from Rotax Service.com :

 http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed4.htm

 There are mountains of evidence out there documenting the problems with 100 LL and the rotax 912 engines. This is not paranoia or something someone made up C it is very real.

 Mike

 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

 Kolb MK-III Xtra C 912-S

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198723#198723

=======================

&g=

[quote] 

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		  [b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Lubricate valves? Back in 

the 20s and 30s or so when engineers like Charles Kettering (Boss Kett) were 

trying to coax more HP out of auto engines they found that they could 

achieve significantly more power by increasing the compression ratio. The 

problem with that was that it caused severe detonation which was destroying 

engines. Somewhere along the line they found that by adding lead to the mix 

which raised the octane level they could successfully raise the compression 

level, thereby increasing HP. Valve lubrication was not the reason it was 

developed, IIRC. 

	


Deke, you are right as for the octane boost  BUT lead does help lubricate the vavles.   Rotax engine do not need the lubriction.   If you recall the older cars did the same thing until the mid to late 70s when unleaed gas was brought into full production.  Th older engines we used to get hardened vavle seats inserted into the heads and that solved the issue of running no lead gas.  The next generation of engines came with different heads/valve seats.

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Dave sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Mike, I am just trying to get a handle on your level of experience 

on the use of AVGAS in your 912 and how many hours you ran it 

successfully.


	


I get that, Dave.  I still don't know.



Jim sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...I bought a wrecked Rans for the 912 engine...The hour meter read 

86 hrs.  I pulled the engine apart to have a look in side...All 

looked fine inside, but there was a buildup in the combustion 

chambers...it was lead buildup from running avgas.


	


Which is why you add a lead-scavenging agent such as TCP when you run 

leaded fuel in them.  It sounds like your engine did not get such 

treatment.



Mike sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  A friend of mine has over 3000 hours operating Rotax 912-s, and he 

changes his oil to non synthetic and uses 100LL for cross country, 

as there is no other option.  He reports hard lead deposits in his 

oil tank after using 100 LL for 50 hours or so.


	


My engine had a lot more than 50 hours on it and I never had any 

deposits in my oil tank.  I always used a scavenging agent when 

fueling up, of course.



Dave sez:

 	  Quote: 	
		  This is why i respond with movies to show you that I put behind what 

i say with a video.


	


Your interest in video is well-documented, Dave.  I once saw a movie 

with a T-Rex terrorizing San Diego ("The Lost World: Jurassic Park") 

and yet when I was in southern California last, they had rebuilt the 

city and you couldn't even tell it had been destroyed by dinosaurs!



But seriously folks, what has this got to do with leaded fuels?  Do 

you have a movie showing the deleterious effects of lead on 912s?



Mike G.

N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster

Phoenix, AZ

Mo

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 14
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Don, Thank you.  My step grandson is really into  animals and knows more about animals than anyone else I have ever met, including  adults.  He recognized some of them before seeing the name and really  enjoyed it.  He had me send your E-mail to his computer.

 Maurice

 [quote]   ---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Mike, when you jump in, you usually do so with both barrels blasting!  If 

you read my message again, that I was trying to clear up the 

misunderstanding that lead is not in the fuel to lubricate the valves, but 

to increase the octane rating.  You'll note that when I was referring to 

whether or not 100LL would damage an engine, I said it was "my opinion" and 

only that, which means it should not be taken as fact.

However, I'm not mixing up anything.  What I read below from you is pretty 

much all stated as fact.  No opinions that I can see.  What I read is just 

more of the same anecdotal info that I see nearly every day, but is 

presented as fact when all one has to do is quote a web link to a self 

serving dealer or regurgitate what is heard from hangar talk.  The vendor 

link, Aeropropulsion Technologies, a fancy name for a dealer,  even makes 

the statement that you must use only Rotax oil filters because there is no 

other substitute or equivalent.  Equivalent?  Come on...  In other words, 

buy it from us or your engine will be destroyed!

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Fair enough, Dave.  I tend to agree with you on what you stated in a 

previous message about running autogas.  Not a real big deal, IMO.  I ran my 

582 pretty much the same as you and it went over 500 hours before being 

overhauled, yet still looked good inside.  I do take exception when I read 

statements referring to fuel like "It's no good after it sits in the can for 

3 weeks".  No, I'm not quoting you.  Just something I read recently.

If you read my last sentence below, I stated that "Valve lubrication was not 

the reason it was

developed, IIRC."  I didn't say that it doesn't lubricate valves. 

Personally, I don't know that it does or doesn't help the valves, but I can 

say that there are a lot of very old certified A65s, A85s, O200s, etc 

running around out there just fine on unleaded mogas.  I read somewhere that 

leaded gas is only necessary for the breakin period, but even that was an 

opinion and I didn't give it a lot of credence because it wasn't backed up 

with any data.   Again, only my opinion.

Staying tuned...

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert



---

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Boy,  

It is getting really good now.  

   

Randy  

   

Do Not archive!  

   

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Maurice

 Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 10:27 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?  

  

     

Don, Thank you.  My step grandson is really into animals and knows more about animals than anyone else I have ever met, including adults.  He recognized some of them before seeing the name and really enjoyed it.  He had me send your E-mail to his computer.  

    

Maurice  

  [quote]    

---

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

I think you meant Deke.  I don't have a clue who Joe is, but you are right. 

It wasn't Shell, but Mobil who was sued.  Thanks for pointing that out.

Deke

do not archive



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Quoting Ben Visser of General Aviation News, Mar. 21, 2008:

(not the whole article..just bits and pieces)



"TEL was not invented to solve a valve problem in engines"

"Once leaded fuels became universally available, automotive and  

aircraft engine manufacturers started to use only leaded fuels in the  

development programs for new engines. They found that the lead acted  

as a cushion for the exhaust valve and seat interface. As they  

increased the temperatures and pressures in the cylinders, the lead  

protected the exhaust valves seats."



"Then in the early 1970's, the automotive industry changed from  

leaded fuels to unleaded fuels. To eliminate the valve recession  

problem caused by the loss of the lead's "cushioning" effect on  

exhaust valve seats, the automotive industry started induction  

hardening all of the seats. The aviation industry has never had to  

make that change."



end of quoted material************

************************************

Ben Visser is an aviation fuels and lubricants expert who spent 33  

years with Shell Oil. He has been a private pilot since 1985. You can  

contact him at Visser(at)GeneralAviationNews.com



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster

Jabiru 2200

Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try."  (Pink  

Floyd..."Learning to Fly")

do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Anyone who still has a 426 hemi in the garage will find out it also likes 100 LL J  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim_and_Lucy Chuk

 Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 1:14 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?  

  

  

   

A couple of months ago, I bought a wrecked Rans for the 912 engine that was on it.  The hour meter read 86 hrs.  I pulled the engine apart to have a look in side, as it had sat for 6 years.  All looked fine inside, but there was a buildup in the combustion chambers (head and top of piston) of a yellowish compound.  It was perhaps 1/32" thick.  When I talked to the tech advisor at Leading Edge Air Foils, he said it was lead buildup from running avgas.  On the pluss side for the avgas though, one wing tank had about 2 1/2 gallons of avgas in it and to get rid of it, I ran it through my mower with no problem.  Jim Chuk  Kitfox 4 building, Avids B and MK IV flying,  MN

 

 > Subject: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

 > From: orcabonita(at)hotmail.com

 > Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:44:16 -0700

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>

 > 

 > Fox5Flyer,

 > 

 > Despite your well written, and very elegant article, you are just plain wrong Joseph whne you say

 > 

 > " As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine, not true. "

 > 

 > You are mixing up your facts between certified aircraft engines which need the lead in 100LL and Rotax 912 engines which are harmed by lead. The Rotax 912 was designed for unleaded fuel, and it is far better to run unleaded gas in it. 

 > 

 > The Rotax 912 will tolerate 100 LL, but the maintenance schedule is doubled, oil changes and spark plugs have to be changed twice as often. Also the synthetic oil which is vastly superior to dinosaur oil is can not be used in the Rotax when 100LL is used. There was also a service letter about lead buildup causing spalling on the gears due to lead buildup. These are not facts that someone is posting as " Misinformation ", this comes straight from the Rotax maintenance manual.

 > 

 > A friend of mine has over 3000 hours operating Rotax 912-s, and he changes his oil to non synthetic and uses 100LL for cross country, as there is no other option. He reports hard lead deposits in his oil tank after using 100 LL for 50 hours or so. It is well known that 100LL will form nasty lead deposits in the Rotax 912 series engines. Synthetic oil is vastly superior to non synthetic, having to use non synthetic oil will shorten the life of the Rotax 912 over time.

 > 

 > Click the following link to Read the 100LL comments from Rotax Service.com :

 > 

 > http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed4.htm

 > 

 > There are mountains of evidence out there documenting the problems with 100 LL and the rotax 912 engines. This is not paranoia or something someone made up, it is very real.

 > 

 > Mike

 > 

 > --------

 > &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

 > 

 > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > Read this topic online here:

 > 

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198723#198723

 > 

 > 

 > 

 =======================

 &g=

 > 

 > 

 >       

  

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Dave:  

   

Just today a guy who recently moved here form southern Ontario mentioned to me he is getting a lot better fuel mileage in his pickup truck than he did in Ontario...  Just one of the pleasant side effects of not having ethanol in the gas!  

   

As for ethanol vs. 100 LL I think I'd opt for the ethanol or even try washing out the eth.    

   

Mr. Harper was here the past two days, no one asked him how to get his ethanol here or what the penalty is for non-compliance.  I wonder if it was an option to buy ethanol laced gas if it would sell...  my bet is it would not... Not even for cars.  

   

   

[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01C8FF2C.312F81A0[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

TCP is required to be burned to work.  That's in the specs I read somewhere.

It doesn't protect the engine from lead content in blow by therefore in the

gear drive of the 9xx engines.  It will only help keep plugs and exhaust

valves from fouling, according to their own info.



Noel



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...I bought a wrecked Rans for the 912 engine...The hour meter read 

86 hrs.  I pulled the engine apart to have a look in side...All 

looked fine inside, but there was a buildup in the combustion 

chambers...it was lead buildup from running avgas.


	


Which is why you add a lead-scavenging agent such as TCP when you run 

leaded fuel in them.  It sounds like your engine did not get such 

treatment.

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

IMHO the only thing definitely destroyed is the warrantee.



Noel



Come on...  In other words, 

buy it from us or your engine will be destroyed!

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT

"

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another "Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we no longer have a choice. It’s either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!! There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to stock some high octane fuel without ethanol. In most states they, the distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of the need to put in additional and separate storage. It’s all a matter of $$ and we don’t have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are removed, we are SOL (sure out of luck)!  

   

Frank Miles  

Clarkston, Washington  

K-III w/ 582  

   

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys

 Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:41 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?  

  

   

Dave:  

   

Just today a guy who recently moved here form southern Ontario mentioned to me he is getting a lot better fuel mileage in his pickup truck than he did in Ontario...  Just one of the pleasant side effects of not having ethanol in the gas!  

   

As for ethanol vs. 100 LL I think I'd opt for the ethanol or even try washing out the eth.    

   

Mr. Harper was here the past two days, no one asked him how to get his ethanol here or what the penalty is for non-compliance.  I wonder if it was an option to buy ethanol laced gas if it would sell...  my bet is it would not... Not even for cars.  

   

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C8FF0A.8B9DA760[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave

 Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:59 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?  

   

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>  

   

Deke  & Mike ,   

   

2 great informative posts.   

   

   

100 LL  gumming up fuel systems ?  No i think that it has been used to NOT gum up fuel systems. I rarely get any issues with gumming of fuel systems.   

   

As far as 100 LL, I think it might be more consistent in the brewing of it than MOGAS . That being said Mogas or marina gas works for me pretty decent.   

   

   

And Deke   >>   

 	  Quote: 	
		    Also, be very careful of what you read here on the Internet.   

 Take all of it with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research   

 before you consider anything as gospel.  

   
	


   

This is why i respond with movies to show you that I put behind what i say with a video.  As far as Ethanol gas ---- I fly 250 to 300 a year and all with ethanol gas or what ever the heck is at the pumps.  AVGAS I think i burned 4 gals a few years ago cause a guy wanted to dump a gerry cans he had in his floats so I just ran it through a funnel and flew away     

   

--------  

Rotax Dealer, Ontario  Canada  

Flying Videos and Kitfox Info  

http://www.cfisher.com/  

Realtime Kitfox movies to separate  the internet  chatter from the truth    

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer  

   

   

   

   

Read this topic online here:  

   

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198727#198727  

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

That is assuming the engine has had all the little goodies like increasing the CR to make it burn ethanol most efficiently.  With low CR engines with mapping  for gasoline you can easily reduce your mileage by close to 40 %.  The guy I was talking to said his mileage for a tank of fuel went from 500Km/tank to over 600km.tank.  That is an increase of mileage of better than 20%.  His pickup is a low CR high displacement V8.  

   

In terms of BTU ethanol is supposed to have about 67% the power of gasoline per unit volume. In other words to get 67% of the mileage you would have to retune  or rebuild the engine specifically to burn ethanol efficiently.  If you do this your engine will no longer burn gasoline efficiently.  

   

Here is a small raft of questions...   

*What exactly do U.S. car makers mean when they say their cars are flex fuel??    

*Do these vehicles have variable CR for different mixes of fuel or do they only have seals that ethanol won’t eat out in a few months?    

*Do they have variable fuel mapping for different mixes of fuel?    

*Do they have variable controls on turbo charging waste gates?    

*Is the whole idea of Flex Fuel just a way of recognizing that the governments of both out lands are sending us down a slippery slope?    

*Is the Idea of “Flex Fuel” vehicles totally hype because there is not one iota difference in the engines made today and what was made two years ago?     

*Just  how do these machines determine the mix of the fuel it’s being fed?  I know one method (Capacitance) but I expect it would be expensive to incorporate in a car or truck.  

   

Using the occasional tank of ethanol will no doubt clean out the top end of your engine...   

*What does it do with the dirt it cleans out???  

*What does it do to the top end of your engine is there is no dirt present?  

   

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny

 Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:03 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?  

  

  

   

Although delivering a little more power, ethanol (100%) is proven to give about 30% less mileage than gas(100%). At 10% ethanol in a properly set up engine, you should lose just 3% .  

   

Espuny  

   

       [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:50 am Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Francisco,



Please explain how ethanol delivers more power and does less work.  This 

sounds like a major contradiction.



Lowell



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?

Francisco:  

   

First I’m in Canada a... North of the U.S. but when you share a continent with a country as large and as powerful as the U.S. sometimes you play along.  Why not?  almost everyone I know has relatives living in the U.S..  In fact I think my family may have then surrounded!  

   

You mention adding gas to the eth to make cars easier to start.  As you know the cars get harder to start as the temperature drops... At various times of the year the temperature really plummets to the point where I used to put a small drop of gas in my Diesel car to keep the fuel from gelling.  

   

The word flex comes from flexible.  What you described is a vehicle that is built specifically to burn ethanol.  It will run too rich and at too high a CR to be able to use any gas.  The fact the first cars ran weakly was because they weren’t getting enough fuel.  Motorcycles run the same way as they lean out just before you pull the reserve tank.  To be a true Flex vehicle it would have to have variable compression ratio, multi fuel injection mapping and of course multi fuel ignition timing.  I don’t think any of these vehicles have any of those things.  I think, but do not know for sure, the only thing done with the so called “Flex” vehicles north of mexico is a slight remapping of the EFI making it run much richer.  I doubt they have either the sensors or the programming to differentiate different fuels.  In fact the only true flex fuel engine is a turbine and even with those they have to be mapped so you won’t burn out the hot section while using some fuels.  

   

As I have mentioned before in your country ethanol is made from surplus In Canada and the U.S. ethanol production displaces food production so the end effect is increased inflation.  Proof was in Fridays newspaper and will be in tomorrow’s newspaper too.  Politics and economics aside there are several other reasons why not to use ethanol in aviation especially in normally aspirated, carburetted piston powered airplanes.  If you have fuel injected engines with super or turbo, chargers and lightly pressurized fuel supplies then  it becomes a bit of a different ball game.  Problem is once an engine is converted to be efficient at using ethanol as a fuel it will no longer be efficient at using gasoline.  Diesel engines which will work wonderfully on ethanol will only do so until the high pressure injection pumps bite the dust.  Diesel fuel lubricates the pumps...Ethanol will tear the stuffings out of them!  

   

What is needed is a standard for the fuel, the way it is handled and the way it is used to be safe.  A little moisture in the fuel on an icing day can cause excessive icing and on hot days may cause vapour lock.  Closed, pressurized, preferably with nitrogen, systems are the only way to go.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny

 Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:15 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?  

  

  

   

Hi, Noel.  

   

I'll try to tell you what I know. In my country the common cityzen knows how a flex engine works, because it's the final point of a long evolution that affected any driver.  

Well, I just don't know if the "flex" tech you have inside USA is the same we have here, but I can say that all modern auto techs  comes from the evolution of 1970's brazilian Proalcool, a government financed sugar cane reserch and production system (with money loaned from your countries, of course). Nowadays all investments are private except for Petrobras that's a state controlled open capital company.  

First there were cars for hidrated ethanol or gas, separetely, no one could run on blends. Alchool cars could not be fueled with gas, for their compression rate was higer and could be damaged, but many people added some gas to alchool for a better start in cold mornings, and there was a gas bottle and a little pump to help at cold starts. Gas cars, if fueled with alchool worked as a heart having a stroke, or simply did not work.   

The first alchool cars' carburetors looked like an old boat hull, full of deposits and corrosion. So were mufflers , pumps and other. First, they niquel plated them, and after some years, developed new materials that could resist the contact with alchool itself.  

A flex car means that the engine has a higer compression to allow ethanol explosion, while more resistant to bear gas explosion at higher CR, plus many sensors and a computerized injection system and all parts ethanol resistant. Some of the sensors analyse the exaust gas and can determine the fuel composition. There's still a plus little gas tank and a temp sensor; if temperature outside is low and sensors find too much alchool in fuel composition, a pump adds some gas to the mixture to a smoother start. That's all, and not too different from your gas cars. They're trusty and last a lot, as any gas car. There's no bad smell, no different sounds, just the convenience of fuelling the way you want. It's even not more expensive and the fuel is cheaper, to compensate less mileage.  

Some chemicals are added to ethanol and eth-gas, so it's not a good idea to deliver it on whiskey bottles, as someone wrote. The engine oil remain yellow by the change time, while gas cars turns it into black, and escape gases are less dangerous, but there's more water expelled from the scape ; the water that is added to ethanol in the distillery and the one that results from combustion (fuel+O2=H20+CO2). There are less deposits because of more complete burn and absence of some gas components (that's all I know about it). And I dont have information about cleaning previous burnt gas deposits,sorry.   

No need added mantainance, also.  

A few years ago, french government analyzed an eth car and determined that the gases could affect the psych, like making people laugh (it's not a joke).  

Believe-me. I love cars, I spend too much on them, and I hated the alchool ones (I used to call them "bombs"), but I love the "flexes".  It's great now that we have all these techs. It's no BS and no political conspiration.  

Talking of power, a flex Civic Si , a GM S10 or any other car, is guaranteed by the factory to have power increased a little when fueled with ethanol. We confirm  this on private dynamometers at the garages everytime someone goes to a tune.  

But never try to fuel a '67 Mustang with ethanol, or your friend's V8. The 602 is strong and may burn some eth, but it'll never be the same. Nor the B&W carbs .  

When I said 30% less mileage , I was comparing uses of both fuels in a flex car, or cars specific for each fuel. That's true. Here, you find tables to compare costs of fuels considering mileage and decide what to buy at the pumps everywhere, on newspapers, auto magazines, etc. They all use the 30% rule. I suppose your friend's car is experiencing little mileage because it was not meant to use ethanol, not built and not tuned to. I have a flex pickup and it's better than my last diesel one.  

But, I repeat, in my opinion all these modifications and more have to be done to planes before they use ethanol, or they'll work as a heart on stroke too. And I say "more" because there are more variables inside a flying plane than in a car, like quick pressure changes, temperature, inertia, vibration, moisture, volume and shape of tanks, etc .  

Let's open our minds and wait. It's destiny. Oil will become rare and expensive, biofuels will take the world. Flex planes will be fine someday.  

By now, only good hi-oct eth-free gas.  

   

Espuny  

   

I talk too much...someone, please, stop me!  

   

       

De: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys

 Enviada em: sábado, 16 de agosto de 2008 00:26

 Para: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Assunto: RE: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?  

  

  

   

That is assuming the engine has had all the little goodies like increasing the CR to make it burn ethanol most efficiently.  With low CR engines with mapping  for gasoline you can easily reduce your mileage by close to 40 %.  The guy I was talking to said his mileage for a tank of fuel went from 500Km/tank to over 600km.tank.  That is an increase of mileage of better than 20%.  His pickup is a low CR high displacement V8.  

   

In terms of BTU ethanol is supposed to have about 67% the power of gasoline per unit volume. In other words to get 67% of the mileage you would have to retune  or rebuild the engine specifically to burn ethanol efficiently.  If you do this your engine will no longer burn gasoline efficiently.  

   

Here is a small raft of questions...   

*What exactly do U.S. car makers mean when they say their cars are flex fuel??    

*Do these vehicles have variable CR for different mixes of fuel or do they only have seals that ethanol won’t eat out in a few months?    

*Do they have variable fuel mapping for different mixes of fuel?    

*Do they have variable controls on turbo charging waste gates?    

*Is the whole idea of Flex Fuel just a way of recognizing that the governments of both out lands are sending us down a slippery slope?    

*Is the Idea of “Flex Fuel” vehicles totally hype because there is not one iota difference in the engines made today and what was made two years ago?     

*Just  how do these machines determine the mix of the fuel it’s being fed?  I know one method (Capacitance) but I expect it would be expensive to incorporate in a car or truck.  

   

Using the occasional tank of ethanol will no doubt clean out the top end of your engine...   

*What does it do with the dirt it cleans out???  

*What does it do to the top end of your engine is there is no dirt present?  

   

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny

 Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:03 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?  

  

  

   

Although delivering a little more power, ethanol (100%) is proven to give about 30% less mileage than gas(100%). At 10% ethanol in a properly set up engine, you should lose just 3% .  

   

Espuny  

    	  Quote: 	
		     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution  	
        

  

  

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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