royjp(at)yahoo.ca
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 Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: Rép E : Zenith701801-List: Re: Ch-750 versus Ch-701 |
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Perhaps,,,,,,,,,you've said it all
Jean-Paul Roy
--- En date de : Jeu, 21.8.08, flicka750 <flicka401(at)gmail.com> a écrit :
| Quote: | De: flicka750 <flicka401(at)gmail.com>
Objet: Zenith701801-List: Re: Ch-750 versus Ch-701
À: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Date: jeudi 21 Août 2008, 11 h 15
| Quote: | --> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "flicka750"
<flicka401(at)gmail.com>
The entire 'kit build' biz is ran by 'Quick-Build' consultants
and Suppliers. The gatekeepers of all conversation shutdown any real discussion
every time. None the questions I have addressed have been answered. There is no
real engineering desire to understand. Just trust the 'force' and leap.
Roll the craps, and land on one of three wonderful planes that Zenith has to
offer. That's not science its witchcraft.
Regarding the 912 issue and real-planes. It's interesting that Van's is
now selling the RV-12 that will only use the 912. Thus the argument that the 750
is for 'real-engines' while Vans with the their 'real-planes' is
going in the opposite direction. I find that interesting.
To date we have learned.
1.) That the 701 is not a x-country plane or isn't, I have seen a lot of
people x-country in 701's. In the true since none of Zen's STOL class
aircraft are x-country, thus that subject should not even have been introduced?
2.) It took a month to learn the 750/701 had the same rudder, to date
that's about all we know. I guess the way things are done is we wait for
Santa ( Uncle Heintz ) to deliver our xmas plans, and keep our mouth shut until
then? [ I have had my 750 plans on order for over a month, my estimate of
deliver is around xmas, my rudder is done. ]. I'm skeptical to hand over
$10k or more in cash ( Zen wants 1/2 down to order in cash ), for a kit that has
no back-order log time available. I'm assuming right now to just purchase
the components as they come available?
3.) The purpose of the 750 was to offer an LSA with a 'real engine',
its clear that Zenith with their new pricing is going head-on to Vans, yet Vans
is going with the 912, and zenith is going towards the O-200. Yes, I agree its
all wink/nod, nod/wink, next year both partys will flip-flop. Only 5 years ago
the Rotax 912 could be had for less than $10k. The 701 kit for the same, thus it
was concievable to fly for less than $20k, especially if you scratch built.
Today I'm seeing people put $50k into panels. It's obvious that
kit-building, and build-assist racket is a gold-mine. That said it could have
all simply been east HELOC MTG money, and those days be over.
4.) We have learned that the 750 is comfy for big guys, if your not a big guy,
you don't need a 750.
5.) I got into kit building a long time ago to keep the cost down. The cost of
say the skycatcher ( cessna lsa ), and the RV-12 class of kit is now closely
converging. The 750 is heading in the same direction. It's clear at the
current rate of price increase that in 1-2 years it will cost more to build a
kit plane, than to buy a new plane. Regarding 'scratch build' its a
KNOWN FACT that the skin/skeleton is less than 20% of the cost of a finished
plane. The 'kit' price is not where the bulk of the money goes. 4X or
more is a good rule of thumb, and 6-8X is most realistic.
6.) We still don't know if the 750 will be approved by the FAA, as its not
grandfathered like the 701.
I haven't heard any logical arguments for the 750. We know that going back
to 2005 in the early Uncle-Heintz announcements it was a 'marketing'
project. Like the Alarus it was going to be a certified AMD-750. Then it became
a kit, I like the Alarus it feels like a very solid ch-601.
701 vs 750 - There is about 3-6% increase in dimensions, no noticeable increase
in carrying weight, yet there is a 40% increase in cost. ( 750 kit is over $20k,
and 701 kit can be had for $13k ). Same rudder, but 750 is said to use
.020" skin, rather than 0.016". The 750 is all about using an engine
over 180LB's, but at the same time the leader in 'PLANE KITS'
(Van's) is moving towards the Rotax.
What I have seen so far in the 701 vs 750 debate is 100% emotion, and perhaps
that is all this group is capable of, perhaps there are no engineers or
scientists in this group?
Perhaps debate is the wrong word, perhaps the word should have been share
information. Perhaps nobody in this forum knows anything more than public zenith
data-sheets, and google searches, and thus the implicit assumption that a debate
and/or exchange of information could take place was asking too much??
gburdett wrote:
| Quote: | Re: How about a real debate, and some real information??
How about not. [Wink]
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Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199800#199800
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